00:00:00.340 - 00:00:25.479

Bye. Uh Professor Bob Lender in Adelaide on September the 20th, 1987. Well, I wonder if you could just uh tell me about your uh your own past work with Aboriginals. Tell me what you've done in terms of your career and what you're doing now and maybe

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how you came to be associated with Holy Trinity Church since I see. You're one of the associate ministers there now. Hello, there's several different questions you have. That's right. So just go ahead and talk. Um I became associated with the Aborigines through the studies I was

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doing in university. And uh I was then a master's in education. You had to write a thesis. Same man after seven, typical. These are the first topics I mentioned. I suggest. You tell me on aboriginal education in the state that would be flexible. And I had

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to uh go around the state and northern territory as well because as you know, we're associated with northern territory a bit of our history. And uh I became interested in similarities between a season Africans because I've been in Africa for 12 years. And of course, there

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are many differences and very poor misunderstandings about the, uh, aboriginal situation. It's a one big thing that, uh, strap me by it, Australian towards taking the notice of Aboriginal culture. They just trying to educate them in the way that they themselves have been educated. And what

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year were you working on this master's? And was, uh, that in the 1865? And when had you been in Africa? Hosea from 38 to 42 and again from 52 to 61. And where were you in Africa? The first Para in Uganda and in the northern province

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and later on, I was in Kenya. You had a good perspective then on the, on the similarities and differences between Black Africans and Aboriginals. Yes, I had, uh, quite a few years in training teachers and, and be able to see the differences between our culture and

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theirs. But, uh, I suppose the reason why I became involved in the question was as I travel around, the teachers would ask me, what do you do in a case like this and quote, that difficulty as I was an expert, I was just really starting on

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the show and I was astounded to see the problems that, uh, I teach refining and the resistance to education I came across and their schools. So I came back and said in a principle, I'd like to start a course of efforts from education, help teaches you

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against teach aboriginal Children. As we've actually been the laughing stock of Australia pretty today for, he, he left and then someone else to go. I get back. Mm. Cie. And I was able to introduce it. Hm. What school was that? That was at that time? Turn

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College of Arts Education? Was that, that, uh, t a fe school down? That's the case. That's a further extension. I see. But your school was C AC A E it takes, uh, students have matriculated. So, so what happened after that then? Well, we had to be

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out of course and explain it because it has earned its interest and uh to write uh books for external students. And of course, follow in places where these students could practice while they were in college, go and teach your Children and that may not f to

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uh see how they're getting on and to try and help them to do right? Went around the out the land in the northern territory and uh by the bus go rangers in South Australia. So you ended up supervising the program then during the part of the

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year. Yes, that was only five weeks. Yeah, that's fine for the rest of the time I elected and organized and we made a policy of having external students as well as internal students for every topic would be. He said every year that we started, how many

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years did you do that when we started in 68? And I finished up and then 81 when I retired. They sat up with the one, of course, the one the I made it and uh I thought what if we had when you live there? Just don't

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have any perhaps because you had various courses. So the I read down and we had courses for Aboriginal people were in service to come in and train his teachers. We had courses in language because there was language has been put on

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tape and it so that it's easy for us to have courses in neighborhood. We had a leg to store and invited some people to come down and teach us. Hm, I thought there were different Aboriginal languages. There are ST anyway. Oh, and anyone is still expecting

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to buy any number of people, there are other languages and they don't do it straight to the extent. Now, what have you been doing since 1981? Really? R invited me to help him start and to this is the only people in the parents. Yeah. Right. Told

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him that I'd be happy to do that. But thirdly, we don't like too, keep her writing, do you know? And I went to around various parts of Australia to meet Aboriginal people to hear their story well, about their particular faith and the move with 10. What

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I want to Christian. Right. We had a can. I, if you probably heard the punishment? Yes, I have. And, uh, we had a big conference, the convention. Yeah, I attended most years. Where is that going to be going against you? Port Augusta next year? 15, in

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January. Ok. That's been held every year since 19 17. I guess there are about three different sources of, uh, a and Christianity. And this one method you see work done by the mission of any better. You know what the test is trying to do. Now, what's

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the name of this place? Who'd have been in Ella? Yeah. Right. A BW a now tell me about those missionaries who, who are they? And what have they been doing? When did they start? Early? 36? OK. As a Presbyterian mission and they determined to part of

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the culture of the people don't try to change it. Our Children to come to school if they mhm And to use the language into give the people the skills that they need just briefly. That was one source. Yeah. So the first time since the A ef

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what have you to convention? Can it that brought people together from all over the stadium? From Northern Queensland and northern Western Australia? Where is all the other places? Your toes? We had 2000 people to set up with activity. Start off about 1070 or about 70. It

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was very well organized at that stage. Person. People in Western Australia in Perth, they were in Sydney had the same idea within about a week of the time that they wanted to start the idea. That's interesting. And we're not controlling each other. And people in Western

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Australia started to work for people in Sydney. Is that the third source or that was the second choice? The second source. So those people all got together and formed the Port Augusta convention. OK. And third source was the Renewal Movement epidemic. Um They don't hear to

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me about that. I heard something about it but I don't know much about it. Uh And that's on which island you Elcho? Poch? A well, tell me about that. I think I started in 82 just from memory. Yeah, I'm sorry. 1318. Hey, I pointed in Everest

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road positive. His training in New Guinea. Hi there, Jimmy, Jimmy. Jimmy. Jimmy. Jimmy, can you the spelling of that name? Ok. It's TJ. I am. Ok. Why are you not? Hm. Ok. But you and Mimi 1080. How do you pronounce it? Ty I OK. Ok.

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And it, he was just meeting with a group of people to pray. Do it? Talk about uh what God could do in your face here we are. You see? Yeah, let me see what else. OK. And he said the, the time came in the fellowship meeting

00:17:11.839 - 00:17:45.630

with people started praying all together. Mm. And uh he didn't let her to drag them but he felt that uh and I just have to wait and see what father is doing. They leave that. We moved out from there, moved out to the camps the old

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station down in the camps and people came around and because Ireland isn't a very big place. No, what did they have? Something like camp meeting there? And then he took a FB singing and praying and preaching and healing. The first week they said, nobody went to

00:18:14.550 - 00:18:52.189

the hospital Indonesia. So he hears the voice of God saying, then stop, clear out a message with the people around the back and they organized teams together locations and communities. They visited all those, all the communities round about and these communities came and visited others. I

00:18:52.380 - 00:19:49.270

maintain Francis. This is uh Christopher. You couldn't have no, he was sorry, I couldn't go for. That's good. So that's started in there moving out, out of the, it was Queen Tim and everything got to do. Uh and Cary. So the bad question and those people

00:19:49.280 - 00:20:30.930

who know have been down to a leadership training conference. Pepsi. S he's part of the as a three services but World Vision Herd and leadership training courses and two, I think I was in back in 19 did that. So we had the of their movement in

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western Australia in western Australia. There said the worst place to go to a to be in the worst place, the worst place. What's the name of the place? What would you, what would range? Uh why is that the worst place I can see, drink and bed

00:21:14.859 - 00:21:58.920

fighting your health. Is it dangerous or is it just the Aborigines or hostile, how things were hostile with their drunk. And then one of the, how the fact is it's rotating when you rip it down that way. Was it the pastor from the villa? Hey, Jane.

00:22:01.829 - 00:22:28.650

It is the name of the past. Oh. How do you spell that? It is? Who would be repeating? Oh, ok. Pastor Pigeon BJ. Oh, Peter. Yes. Oh, Peter. I will give you a zipper through a name because OK, he's aware now and he's doing better but

00:22:29.209 - 00:22:55.400

he went up to train in Nan in college in Car. Hm. And when he was up there, he met some of these men from the Renewal Movement for in Chinese, they body could do whether do I and he advised from Dublin to visit the same where

00:22:55.410 - 00:23:47.660

he lived. Ok. When they saw the state of affairs in the Sydney, particularly in Cray. So the based across the western Australian border, a preach to them preach to revenge and, and faith in God. And they said communities were quite transformed. Unfortunately, not every day. What

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happened? Maybe it wasn't P 00, it lasted for a certain amount of time, then failed quite a bit. But when the when the whole community was change is the responsibility of the Aborigines to pass this way down. They took a team of about 50. Mhm The

00:24:24.199 - 00:25:21.369

weddings of birth and subsequently went right around the state. The the training with a smaller team of Christ and preached in as many places. They get a hearing. So it spread out for what? Right, throughout Western Australia. So

00:25:21.380 - 00:26:02.300

it's all intertwined with these three purposes. Presbyterian work at head back. Yeah. Yeah, I knew that, that part of that. Now, this, that's affected both South Australia and Western Australia. Now, what about continuing organization or anything? Is uh the A ef the main body that's working?

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Does it have any kind of structure or very little stretch here? Because it had a greater finance. Britain. The court against uh convention is held every year. They have been into president and the secretary. They have created it. What did you do it anyway? They have

00:26:42.829 - 00:27:11.979

a training part. Oh, they do. Yes. The Port Augusta convention has a training college. Oh, the A EF has a training college? Ok. And what's, what's it called? And how can I find out about it? And so brief five from you? Oh, Peter Andre. Oh, you

00:27:12.000 - 00:28:06.170

mean it's in New South Wales and New South Wales, is that right? And the noble, he's not a big organization and they take over the old hospital building and uh at a time that the paper about the year. Are you there? No, this is

00:28:06.180 - 00:28:41.530

a type script about the Britain Drive church is the, but up in northern state did, did you write this? But uh it's depending on what do you think? Hang on. This is what happened? I go to college in Gin. Now, this, what's this college? Is this,

00:28:42.050 - 00:29:08.930

uh, the college for the, how people, let's see. Now, who runs it? And I join? What would you be? Practice, uh, things that in change? Hm. Oh, you can't take me? Hm. Is there any chance I can make copies of this material and return it to

00:29:08.939 - 00:29:38.189

the beach and take it with you or I can just take this? Oh, that'd be great. I appreciate that. I appreciate that very much. And I'm sure we can you give copies. I Yeah, a too. The which I am. Yes, I had a brain attack when

00:29:38.290 - 00:30:20.900

he Yeah, how can I get a copy of that or get a copy of it? I'll get you the address. Ok. You can take it to the address. Oh, I can just take this. Yes. Oh, that'd be great. And that's where I can write and

00:30:20.910 - 00:30:53.189

get the newsletter then. Ok. Yeah, we busy man. Ok. Would be cold but for eating. Ok, this is Max Hart. And how do you pronounce that? Ka Ka on Aboriginal Education. It's published by the Australia and New Zealand Book company Sydney 1974 and it's available or

00:30:53.199 - 00:31:11.560

it was available in paperback. It's uh now out of print, but we can get it in the library. And then uh your ma thesis was entitled a History of Full Blood Aboriginal Education in South Australia, right in Northern. And uh, oh, yeah. What's reference to the

00:31:11.569 - 00:31:41.619

northern territory. And that was done where at the University of Adelaide, University of Adelaide? And what year was that? 1970? And then the title of your book that you've just finished, uh, a History of what, what it's, it's entitled a Story of Fire. How would you

00:31:41.630 - 00:32:07.239

characterize that? Uh, a History of evangelical work among Aboriginals or a history of Aboriginal evangelicalism? Yes. The second, the second one. Ok. It's, it's really about the Aboriginal evangelicals themselves. It's told by themselves. Yeah. Most of those are interviews with Aboriginal people. Oh, that's great. First

00:32:07.250 - 00:32:23.339

hand information. I think, I think some publisher, if they have any sense would pick that up right away and you're having this typed right now the manuscript types and you're going to submit it to a publisher as soon as you get it done. Do you have

00:32:23.349 - 00:32:39.660

any idea when that will be, when do you think you'll have the type script all done by the end of the year? Well, as I said, I want to leave our address so you can let us know when it's done so we can, is there any

00:32:39.670 - 00:33:00.619

way I could get a copy of this? Do you have a copy of the? I haven't got another copy of that. Some of those names are of interest. Maybe I could just jot down a few notes from it if I could. Is there anything else about

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evangelical work among the Aboriginals that you can tell me that would be helpful to us. I think the main characteristic that uh I find so intriguing is the way they share the experience with others and their evangelical approaches on a sharing basis for the same. If

00:33:43.160 - 00:34:12.020

one receives the, where she said if the group received a visit, they post it on and to my table to have a clean. Whereas if we had a visiting preacher, we received him and received his message and that's about it. Yeah, we don't do it. Yeah.

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Think it pass. We don't do it in the community. How do they do it? Do they form teams and go out and perform to about 10 or 1000? What do I expect? What do I organize it? Ok. And they have a choir and they worked together

00:34:56.969 - 00:35:26.189

as a team, arrange everything before they go because generally they can only go for a weekend and they very often travel by plane by everybody puts in his chair. This would uh this would be characteristic of what would happen in, say South Australia or the northern

00:35:26.199 - 00:35:55.439

territory or western Australia probably wouldn't be. So in New South Wales and more of a northern territory and western Australia. Do they, do they elect a leader or something or how do they establish leadership? Well, they seem to know who that is really and it's usually

00:35:55.449 - 00:36:23.590

natural in it. Or the page list is one of the problems permanency of work is that. And nobody in your college would have told me that. Yeah. Trying to turn the artist to make in these communities. Is that the secret of making the work more per

00:36:23.629 - 00:36:53.120

permanent to train pastors or? Well, I was teaching. Really? It's a strange part to do the Bible teaching. Mhm. How many aboriginal pastors would you say there are in this country? No aboriginal in general. Let me phrase it this way. How many evangelical aboriginal pastors would

00:36:53.129 - 00:37:28.030

you estimate there are in Australia? I wouldn't like this is, it must be behind. It's one each community up there. It's right in the Darwin. It's right here. Hi. Penny. Every community you go to. If I never surpassed that, they're being evangelical. Hm. Mm. Yeah. You

00:37:28.040 - 00:38:01.510

know, just general to be charismatic. And then can you be more what we call that? Gentle? Not be? Hm. Out of the turtle. Go ahead. Go ahead. It doesn't mean that the, and you can down to Timothy with the, look at the spirit, but they do

00:38:01.929 - 00:38:43.070

say, which had to describe the different names. They probably don't put as much emphasis on things like speaking in tongues or whatever is they don't. Chris, a person may speak nine or 10 languages for a start. Hm. He may speak his own tribal over, he live

00:38:43.120 - 00:39:08.959

as much as they lived as far as they lived. I can get, you say it is not unusual to find somebody. Is that right? And that's among the cross section of Aboriginals, not just their leaders. Are you talking about pastors and told about the generally? That's

00:39:08.969 - 00:39:48.429

amazing. It's uh the media, of course, they moved about a bit more is a very interesting development in the creo Bible. To you come across a areas in which Creole is back. No, I haven't right through from Queensland northern territory on land, particularly down the kettle

00:39:48.439 - 00:40:21.129

station area and not so much on the, that's where the CRE Obama went in. A, uh, is that one of the largest, uh, groups of the largest one? Hm, I might be wrong there because the western de language divide up with a number of different languages.

00:40:22.000 - 00:40:56.550

I can understand each other. Hm. It's interesting, isn't it? That's, that's a significant belt of languages across there. Um, I saw a thing the other day about this Charismatic convention that they're having here in January, I guess, is that when they have it? And they had

00:40:56.560 - 00:41:21.449

an aboriginal pastor on their program? Was it Ben Mason? Is that, is that his name? What's, what's, who's he? And what's he doing? He's here, his family, he's working at the Springs, working with the United States. Which Springs or B Springs? He's a, has a church

00:41:21.459 - 00:41:46.459

there or is he just an ordained minister of that church? He's an ordained minister of the church. It has a case. I see. So he's a practicing pastor then and then he goes around and speaks at these various conventions or a convention. Let's see. Do you

00:41:46.469 - 00:42:10.820

know him personally? What kind of a person is he? Is he all right or? Oh, yes. Very f the pain. Mm. And he moves in these charismatic circles here in this part of the world, huh? He, he makes pretty easy in most of the Christian temples,

00:42:16.580 - 00:42:45.419

uh, species they work here. I just crashed. Do you recall the name of his church up in Alice Springs, Finn Memorial, which is the, which Finn Memorial? Flynn memorial? The Flynn memorial? Uniting church. Well, I noticed his name on that program and I wanted to ask

00:42:45.429 - 00:43:16.560

you about him. He was here five months ago. Ok. We had to go with us. No. What's his background? Is he, did he grow up in a Christian home or is he a fresh convert or he comes from, which is the stadium and he converted? 3d

00:43:17.560 - 00:43:50.389

especially located? Ok. Yeah. And has he had any kind of theological training? Singleton Bible College? Singleton Bible Colleges. Where is that? Where, where is that in New South? Wales? More of these vital doesn't exist? Oh, it doesn't, I was gonna say I hadn't heard of it

00:43:50.399 - 00:44:18.020

and I can't keep up with all the Bible colleges that I keep finding out about. Well, where was the Singleton Bible College? Because I'm from Sydney. I did any text of, hm, what happened to it? Did it just fall on hard times? It by the, listen,

00:44:19.659 - 00:44:56.679

where the vision uh, as that between you, how you doing work of German pass this to save you have the strong, did this uh this other Bible college take its place? That is. Yeah. Right. Yeah. This one that took its place. What, what is the Catherine

00:44:56.689 - 00:45:28.879

convention that you mentioned here? Catherine convention? You will say, tell you about the seventies. It's a weekend convention and white be about 5050. Hm. If you can see. Have you. And where is it at? Katherine in northern territory? No, I don't know my geography. Well enough.

00:45:32.300 - 00:45:55.229

Better try cancer again. Hm. And that's in the northern territory. Not in Queensland. Mm. And that's still going on? Yes, I got some tapes just recently from that. Oh, I didn't go up this year. What do they do it at a convention like that? What would

00:45:55.239 - 00:46:34.209

be typical? Well, a lot of singing. Mhm. Christian messages to building up the lives of people. And, uh, you read the messages. Did you say this? The Catherine convention was about half white and half black. And who would they invite to speak to them? For example,

00:46:36.219 - 00:47:03.340

for the high investors on a Saturday, you may have an Aboriginal in here. Do you recall who might be well known that they'd invite or do they have to be well known? Any buddy whose name I might recognize, uh, the year I would say a couple

00:47:03.350 - 00:47:07.419

of three years ago they had written from New.