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Interview with Archbishop Sir Marcus Low at his house 15 Harrington Street H we on July 24th, 1991 at 10:30 a.m. Just go from there. Um As I looked at the crusades, all three of them, you played a fairly significant role in all three crusades. Um How

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did 1969 come about? I know that Archbishop Mole wrote to the Grain in about 1954 but I can't find any reference to anyone in biting Billy Graham and poker. I think we should go back that way in the 19 fifties. The first report of Billy Graham

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that made any impact, I think among e evangelical clergy in evangelical circles in Sydney was after the Hellen day crusade in London. Archdeacon Robinson. The father of the present archbishop was in London and went to Howard Gay and was enormously impressed. He brought home reports of

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what he had observed while he was there. Then Dr A W Morton who in those days I think was still recall of Haverfield or he may have become rec of Durst. I can't remember which had been in America. Obviously, we have the switch that off that

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one. Oh, no, you're alright. Um uh group here and had brought back reports of the crusades which had already taken place and very much for you. Right? No, thanks. This is fine. Ok, thank you. Thank you. Then I can't remember what year it is, but you

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said something about 1956. Did you? Yeah, someone Dr Stuart Piggin mentioned you in an article he wrote saying that you expected the revival to come. Oh, I think that's because I had uh I made the remark at some point that I thought that contrary to the

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19 forties in the 19 fifties, generally speaking, there was an upturn in spiritual interest throughout uh Sydney at all events, not only in the Anglican church, but in evangelical bodies like the evangelical union and the Crusader Union. In other words, there was a movement that was

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going on before the Billy Graham crusade was even uh launched and when it came, it came at the crest of a rising tide which had been developing for several years. In other words, I don't think the Billy Graham crusade caused, you know, a spiritual movement. I

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think it was, it came just at the peak of something that had been going on. I don't know that I would use the word that I, in fact, I, I know that I wouldn't, I'm for the crusades for any, any, I don't think there has been

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in the Bible in this country. I was gonna ask you in my sense of the word, the Bible, that there was certainly a uh an upsurge of spiritual interest and concern. Uh When the crusade was first uh really looted archbishop, no convened immediately which took place

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in the old scenic building and to which he invited the representatives of all the mainstream protestant churches. I was at it. Um He said before them, the desirability of a Graham crusade. But the need for it to be an invitation to Billy Graham that would come

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with the backing of the churches. Well, the church uh leaders of that day were a mixed group. Uh We will say that the Methodist church would be reasonably sympathetic with Alan Walker to lead it. But the Presbyterian church with Mr Vines was likely to be highly

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critical. However, the archbishop handled the meeting so well that it was agreed even with some reservations that a unanimous invitation should be sent. So it was Archbishop Me with the backing of the representative leaders of all the churches who initiated the two said that were the

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leaders in Sydney itself or Australia weren't. Well, that was Sydney and of course, once it was uh established that he would come to Sydney from everyone else uh got onto the bandwagon and we'll go from there. The end result was that Billy Graham accepted the invitation.

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He was to come for five weeks. He sent out a man named Jenny Devin to do the spade work. Um An executive committee was set up. Bishop Cole was the chairman. I was in England uh for the greater part of the year 1958. And uh that

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was the year in which that committee really was set up and began to function when I returned. Um I'd say out of the kindness of Bill Powell's party, he invited me to join the committee at that late stage. Yeah, when the crusade took place, um I

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opted to join the follow up committee and that's where I anchored down for the month of the crusade. And I think I must have been present at every meeting except the Saturday night meetings. I would not go to the Saturday nights. Uh The crusade was to

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have been five weeks. It was reduced to four weeks because Billy Graham had a di no because this probably should not prep but it was because he had a summons to Buckingham Palace said, right? All the paper said that he had an eye. They had to

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say something because he couldn't reveal it. He wasn't in trouble like he was summoned for a, a war or something. Was it? Oh, no, no. He received a uh an invitation, a sort of poo if you like as far as that applies to an American citizen

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to, to uh be at Buckingham Palace in order to have tea with the queen on a date which fell in the fifth week of the who said, and uh for many different reasons, he felt that this was an invitation which he could not uh ignore or

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refuse. And I just asking to, um would it just be um an embarrassment for him, for me to print that or would it the embarrassment for other people to print that? I think it's the sort of thing that you then print about the royal family. How

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is it? Right at this juncture? Um because it was a private invitation, it wasn't a public thing and that was why it wasn't made public out here at the time. Uh But that was the real reason anyhow, that crusade say grew in strength from week to

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week and it was stronger in his fourth week than it was in his first week by far. And who knows, what did it had run the course of five weeks. Yeah, Billy Graham asked Clive Kerr and myself to spend a day with him and to go

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to the mountains or to some country area. Uh We didn't, we didn't know what was in store. He said he just wanted to uh have fellowship with us. Um What he did was greatly to my embarrassment. He asked me if I would write some sort of

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record of the impact of the crusade on the Diocese of Sydney as far as I was able to observe it in post crusade days, I did this and subsequent dissented to him. But uh nothing happened to her that this one that I know probably in the

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archives of future archives. Uh I wasn't very keen to do it but I did do it. But the interesting thing about it was that one in gathering information for it, one did learn of uh the enormous effect that it had in all kinds of parishes. Uh

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One just comes to mind. Forestville was in those days was just verging. Um I think they, I've forgotten the figures but they more than doubled their congregation. Uh They, and they, and throughout the diocese for the next two or three years, there was a huge increase

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in the number of adult companies sometimes or more adults than adolescents who were being confirmed. And then also for three or four years after the crusade, there was a great increase in the number of candidates for more college, both for ordination and for missionary service. I'd

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say that ran on the almost to the middle sixties, about 63 or four. And the upsurge in more college at the beginning of the sixties, as far as numbers were concerned, uh could definitely be traced to the crusade. Now, what happened about 1968? I am extremely

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vague about it. I don't know why. Maybe it was the year that the Lambeth Conference uh was held. And again, I was away from Sydney though I was back here by the end of the year, it was late in the year wasn't it? 68 69 01

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was in Sydney and one was in Melbourne, which was, which I haven't been able to work that out. The Pope is not that clear now, which I think Sydney was 68. Yes, I think so. And again, I was off the sea or as a substantial part

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of 68 that was here when the crusade was held, it was only a 10 day crusade if I remember rightly the first week, uh what was it was an alarm crusader with 10 days of Billy Graham. At the end, it began with Leighton Fall. It's very

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the 1959 Crusaders well documented 69 crusades hardly, hardly grow anything except what you wrote in the Southern Cross as a lead up to it. 69 there was only one, there was one year, it was in Melbourne and one year it was in Sydney. So I'm afraid

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it's all fuzzy in my mind because I haven't found anything concrete in any literature about whichever year it was in Sydney as well. Southern Cross was certainly in the take which year it was because uh and it's a bit vague in my mind in the front.

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Whereas, uh who, well, when Billy Graham came in as it were just by the tail end of the crusade, and he indicated that he wanted to put his emphasis on an appeal to youth, to young people, teenagers. And it was directed towards young people. Is it

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because of the 19 sixties flower generation or the big youth culture? They had something to do with it. But I think he also felt that uh in 19 59 there was an obvious response from young people that the crusade and all had been, she would say,

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directed to uh very much an adult audience. And uh he just had the idea that he wanted to, to major on an appeal to young people. I thought the crusade was too short to be, to be comparable with the one in 1959. It didn't build up

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in the same way. It didn't create the same climate. It was more limited than its appeal about its expectation. Was that too connected. You said that there's a change in the Australian 19 forties. It may have been so, of course, the sixties were, I thought they

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will be screaming years or whatever one makes to call them. And they certainly weren't the years of the fifties when there was that rising from the spiritual tide and tide was flowing out in the sixties. You'd have to say, uh I honestly did not think that

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the, that the visit in the sixties was as fruitful. All the fact there must have been 59 and that might have been attributable to a lot of things it might have been, as you say to a more adverse spiritual climate. It might have, I think it

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was partly a tribute to the brevity of the crusade that didn't have the same build up before or during or whatever may have been properly treatable to a character. The crusade. Uh What does that mean? That, that its emphasis was on older people? Would we clearly

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told that it was? Ok. So I remember reading in Southern Cross that uh there was just comments of astonishment by a reporter saying there were mods and the mods and freaks, I think were turning up to this and they were just astounded by them and the

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miniskirts and the long hair and the was so fascinating. Yeah. Did you write to Billy Graham or did you ask him verbally to come in 68? 69? I don't think so. I can't remember. I frankly can't remember how it came about because he don't know. I'm

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sure I don't think I emanated from the must have come from the remarks of the executive committee in 58. Might I try, I don't think it came from me, but in 79 it did, did you write two more years? What happened was that I was actually

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in West Arm, uh 1976. I think it was. And uh I was thinking, could one do to make a real spiritual thrust before the end of the seventies and before the end of my days as archbishop and I'm just trying to think what could one do?

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And it came to me that 1979 would mark the 20th anniversary of the 1959 crusade. So when I got back to Sydney and I wait for that doctor to pull it away and take the challenge asked if he would be prepared to come for a crusade

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in 1979 to mark their 20th anniversary. And uh to hold a crusade on similar lines, not, not as in 68 or nine and to come preferably for a month, but not less than three weeks, but less than three weeks would not be acceptable. And then I

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showed the letter to BD who had links to a Bill and Brown and kind stretching back over many years. And he came back and he said, uh you like the letter? But did I know that uh nowadays, Billy Graham never accepted an invitation for more than

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10 days. I said, I can't help it. I'm not going to reduce it to 10 days. And if he won't come for three weeks, we won't ask, can we? And he said, send it and I sent it and um Billy wrote back and very warm there

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and said he would be delighted to come and he understood the situation and he was prepared to do three weeks. And then I thought, why ever didn't I ask him for before? However, that, that, that was where that began. But then I invited representative leaders of

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the churches to meet in the Chapter House it was a bit different from the days of archbishop me because I presented them in a fair country. I said Billy Graham is coming and I'm now asking if the churches will give their support in general terms so

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that we can say that uh it's not simply a denomination invitation. It is much wider. Well, they weren't quite as unanimous as they were in the fifties, but on the whole, they agreed that they were done. And then I think they thought it was all a

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bit arbitrary because I then informed them that I would appoint Bishop Deane as the chairman of the executive committee. They might like to make that somebody else. You see, but I didn't want it to get out of our hands. And um and I told them that

00:19:02.520 - 00:19:25.989

this day would then proceed to form an executive committee uh and to allocate to various people, their responsibilities, which really was doing it in a very autocratic manner. And I'd have to acknowledge that not at all but shouted from the power stops. But uh did you

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not want it to get out of our hands? Because um you didn't want to get away from the Evangelical Threats Act. You didn't want to get it away from the, from the strongest possible evangelical thrust. So Bishop Dane then went about uh forming a, a very

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good executive committee, not, not all Anglican of course, but uh uh when they went to work, they had some problems. Their first problem was that in the end they found that they could not have the, uh, show ground because it was, uh, I've forgotten what the

00:20:04.640 - 00:20:23.079

reason was. Given them a football season or something or other. And the ground had already been, uh, let, they had to look for an alternative and in the end it, it went around it on reflection. And after that one would have to say the grand that

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was not as good a avenue as uh the showgrounds had been. But that was what we had to. The crusade itself was very, very thoroughly prepared for this. I read the um that huge report that was done for the archives. It was obviously very well done.

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Yes. It unfortunately fell in a month when it was rain, night after night, after night, nearly every night, it wasn't raining. It was uh bitterly cold but cold and um overcast and re imminent at any moment. But the big rain in 1959 too at different points.

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It was amazing to see people flying through the mud without a coat or a bit or anything standing in the rain. There were some very special features in 1979 like the simultaneous translation. Oh, they do a number of languages. I, I've forgotten how many might have

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been a dozen different languages, uh Mandarin or Cantonese. And I don't know what other Asian languages off hand, but also into Greek and Italian and Spanish and so on. And it was interesting if I remember rightly, ok, there was a response from all these different groups,

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but the biggest response was from Chinese and from, thanks, any reason, that thing, I didn't know what the reason was, but uh that's how it worked out. It was a pretty, um, uh, bold is not the right word but uh innovative move. I would have thought

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the ch that, that to uh to have simultaneous translation I think is a good move. But um at the same time, a a fairly innovative one for the church, I would have thought it was. Oh yes, yes, it was. They also have very extensive landline relays

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all over the country. They had buses coming from country centers and so on. Thank you so much. I don't suppose it made this the profound impact that this 59 crusade did. I think it certainly stirred up the churches but didn't sort of reach out to the

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other church community to the same extent. Said it again because the build up wasn't there in the forties and fifties. No, I mean, in 59 the press began by being very critical, even hostile. In 59 satirical it up to seven uh the reason. But in the

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end, they had to take notice of it. And in the end, all kinds of people were talking about the crusade, whether they went there or not. It became a common topic of conversation. I, I know that from, say, my father's reaction and people who wouldn't have

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given a second thought to go to the crusade at the beginning, uh, was so stirred up by the media in the end that they went. Is your father opposed to it or for it? Oh, no, he wasn't opposed to it, but then he wasn't for it

00:24:00.089 - 00:24:15.680

either. But in the end he wanted to go, curiosity got him out at first was that he had a try. Took him myself. That was a night in which the rain was coming down in buckets. And when the appeal took place, hundreds went forward, he could

00:24:15.689 - 00:24:33.109

hardly believe his eyes, you know, making little exclamations beside me and it made a very great impression on him. It was amazing. I read about Leon Morrison, the Melbourne one. He said, same thing just bucketing down. He said, if anyone goes for this, there will be

00:24:33.189 - 00:24:57.579

nothing short of a miracle. 6000 scream for. Well, the same thing happened. But uh I don't, I don't think the figures were comparable in, in 7959. But the funny thing was that in 79 the press was enormously favorable is that right? The media gave it maximum

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support concrete for the way it began in 59. They really read up the gram and the crusade, you know, like I put in that. It's strange for Sydney, is it because they normally lampoon and they just, they did, you know there was no, no, it wasn't

00:25:18.589 - 00:25:38.089

lampoon at all. It was, it was anyone who I remember in 79 watching Mike Willacy when he had Billy Graham on. And, uh, because every time Mike tried to, uh, put Billy Graham into a crime, Billy would just give an honest answer and s step it

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and Paul Mike will see they're gonna face it every time. Well, Billy Graham, what a master in dealing with those interviews, press and TV. And he was always so gracious and uh he always talked his way around or through uh a problem, you know. So I

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remember Bill um Mike Wys asking something about money and Bill said, I thought you'd ask that I just got here, everything that we do, you know Mike Willy had no, no response to that. There is, is there any reason why Billy Graham wasn't invited back in

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say 1989? I wouldn't know, but I, I would think that uh his age and his health would be against it. He has had some real health problems. I believe in the last five or six or seven years, been in and out of that mayo hospital and

00:26:39.839 - 00:27:07.760

has greatly reduced the overall commitment of himself to, to save activity. And I think that position is, and this is hearsay not to acknowledge that he will take four or five or four or five crusades in a year. And uh change my strategic set and, uh,

00:27:07.770 - 00:27:34.939

otherwise greatly reduce to his work. But he must be 70 or 71 now. And although he always looked the picture of physical fitness, uh, there must be some problems which are now and continually. And I also think that during the 19 eighties, uh, once away from

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America, his own interest had been focused more and more and more on what were they are in certain countries. And uh if it were a choice between coming back to Australia and going to somewhere in Central Europe or Russia or wherever, there would be no question.

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Maybe I'm sure that today, but I have not heard of any proposal to invite him back to and I think the independent way, but though he had loved being in Australia, it was unlikely that he would return. I, I seem to remember that Graham co um

00:28:15.060 - 00:28:38.680

but more colleagues suggested to me that it in the seventies, the late seventies, there was a, a more intense or a, a sharper Calvinistic fundamentalism that was coming through the, the Australian church so that we're almost becoming more Calvin than Calvin was. And he suggested that

00:28:38.689 - 00:29:00.609

maybe the church leaders then didn't appreciate Billy Graham as much as they did before because he didn't, no, he no longer fitted um Our view of an evangelical. Is it, does that ring true? Or I wouldn't have thought that that was true. Say of the Diocese

00:29:00.619 - 00:29:26.979

of Sydney? No, the old that if I could use the word without any unfortunate confrontation of the senior cle there might have been a stronger element of carbon is among some younger clergy. And there was the reformed Presbyterian church which was strongly Calvinistic and which was

00:29:26.989 - 00:29:54.510

making its debut in the 19 seventies. And uh perhaps the card influence was stronger, generally speaking than it had been say in the previous decade. And I wouldn't have thought to the extent of, you know, we really thought for what we said. I wouldn't have thought

00:29:54.520 - 00:30:09.989

so, but I don't know because I could probably wasn't in touch true. Is there the only reason why it was Billy Graham who was involved? Like I know that you said uh uh stick and Robinson had heard and uh Doctor Malt, I think he said had

00:30:10.000 - 00:30:25.589

brought that back and there were others who brought back information from Harringay as well. Um But were there no other evangelists like from England or in Australia? And later on, we had our own John Chapman and Jeff Bingham. Is there any reason why J Fletcher? Is

00:30:25.599 - 00:30:46.489

there any reason why they were not used? But why do we use the Southern American Baptist pastor who is an ex salesman to come here? It's just an intriguing question for me. Well, there had been other American evangelists who had come and gone in Australia, but

00:30:46.500 - 00:31:09.180

none of them would be the amazing acceptance that the, the ground was to have to do in England. I think that it came to be recognized that Billy Graham was an evangelist out of the ordinary justice in the 19th century. DL moody was an evangelist, quite

00:31:09.189 - 00:31:30.939

out of the ordinary. Everything might have seemed to be levied against DL moody when he began no education and nasal American voice and so on. But, uh, and those social graces and so on. Well, Billy Graham had a lot of days that drn didn't have but

00:31:30.949 - 00:31:52.589

uh they had a charisma and uh I think anyone who were and you like to meet those uh and spend an hour with his company would hardly fail to realize that he stands head and shoulders above most other people uh as a person and as a

00:31:52.599 - 00:32:18.900

Christian, the fright thing about him is that on the one hand, there is an unquestionable humility, I don't mean the URA he type, but he is a very humble man of God, but it is uh combined with uh our sincerity if, if that's a good word

00:32:19.819 - 00:32:40.719

and that is uh gives a kind of moral force to what he is and what he says in which we very powerful. He's got a, he's got a most attractive personality. Uh He put many people in the shade, not unconsciously, but uh he is just so

00:32:40.729 - 00:33:02.660

open and transparently open. I've always said the best part of Billy Graham is Billy Graham and maybe he was trying to prepare John Chapman or Jet, you know, for anyone else with him, they're not, they're just not in the same category. They're different people, they're different

00:33:02.670 - 00:33:23.810

personalities. Uh, hm. That's all, it's, I, I think one would have to conclude. One might, I don't agree with everything that Billy Graham says. I don't agree with that. All the methods he was followed. I don't endorse everything that Billy Graham is and may, you know,

00:33:24.319 - 00:33:46.010

uh, represent. But um I don't think for a minute that one could question the fact, but God has raised him up in the ninth in the 20th century in an extraordinary way. And it's not American salesmanship. He's collared with all that sort of machinery to help

00:33:46.020 - 00:34:05.380

him in his crusades, take Billy Graham out of the picture. And I don't think they can put another one in his place. Even with all the salesmanship in America being command. There's no one like him in America. He is just a very exceptional man. A man.

00:34:05.390 - 00:34:20.829

God is raised up. Hm. You remember lighting for writing a new book, The Power of cray or something. But uh a small town in the US have a decided that they would pray for revival to send an evangelist and the farmer who organized it was Billy

00:34:20.839 - 00:34:39.368

Graham's father and bit of ground. And that right up where I, how do you see the effect of the three Crusaders on the Diocese of Sydney was there? Look, I know there was an in an initial effect in 59 and it lasted for maybe four years

00:34:39.378 - 00:34:55.049

at the most. Um, did it change? The dial is in any way? And then when you get to 79 you said that when you're in risk area, you, when you were in West Yri Andy, is that where you were in 7476 you were looking forward to

00:34:55.059 - 00:35:17.419

something that would have an impact on, on Sydney. Uh were your hopes and dreams for food at that point? Not to the extent that I had hoped. I didn't think either of the subsequent crusades matched the 59 1 in that respect. But I continued to find

00:35:17.429 - 00:35:40.050

all through the years after 59 that one constantly met someone who traced his conversion or is called a Christian service to one or other of the crusades? Mhm. Like people in key positions, do you think like strategic positions? Well, maybe they began as students unders were,

00:35:40.060 - 00:36:00.659

uh uh came out of the crusade. So we say in 59 are probably now in key positions. I'm not sure that Paul Garnett was not one of them, but those who uh came out of the crusade on Sunday night might not have arrived as a key

00:36:00.669 - 00:36:18.320

position yet, you know. Yeah. What about on local churches? Do you think it's hurting them? Yes, I think I do. I think that, uh I think II I would have to leave the 68 right now because I, although I believe it was fruitful and good and

00:36:18.330 - 00:36:43.260

there were people who were converted with people who were called the Christian service. It didn't have the same effect. But um I think the, the 59 and 79 crusades certainly uh stirred congregations. So saw a great increase in congregational worship and commitment. Say Glazer would be

00:36:43.270 - 00:37:07.580

an example. I think it transformed Glas from in many of those. Hm How so how so how did it transform Glas from that? They revitalizing the congregation itself and things spiritual? This was in 59 and by drawing and by the way, in which uh referrals came

00:37:07.590 - 00:37:28.600

to the rector and were followed up and people were really netted into the enlightened fellow of the church. In, in the end, I think the follow up is the again, uh there was, that's the secret of what happens. No follow up. You know, it's going to

00:37:28.610 - 00:37:48.639

be much more difficult than good follow up tremendously important. Hm You, you mentioned earlier that in 79 it stirred the churches but it didn't have the outreach into the outsider. I don't think so. I don't think it, I don't think it made the impact, shall we

00:37:48.649 - 00:38:11.100

say on the secular city of Sydney and the way that it did in 5859 it stirred the churches without any doubt, sir, if, if it stirred the churches. Um I wonder why it didn't translate into the outside world. We are we caught up in what's commonly

00:38:11.110 - 00:38:25.659

called that siege mentality in 79 the siege mentality where, you know, the church, I've just read a lot of stuff lately that said that suggests that the church in Australia is just inward looking so it might get stirred up on the inside. But is that, is

00:38:25.669 - 00:38:46.080

that part of it or is there something else? I suppose there's some sort of structure of the city of Sydney is changing all the time with the enormous influx of migrants who had no church interest or connection with the great increase in uh in the number

00:38:46.100 - 00:39:11.800

say of Muslims to their account number disabled Jewish population. And who of course, if anything are hostile to everything Christian. And uh I would think that uh Sydney is a less Christian city today than it was a generation ago because the population itself is changing in

00:39:11.810 - 00:39:38.719

a way change. The population is of an nor character, you know, that is from, from traditionally non-christian country. That is the population is from a more traditionally non-christian country that is uh not England, but middle Europe or Asia in the 18th century. Um You said before

00:39:38.729 - 00:39:53.469

that you don't think Australia's ever had a revival, not like the 18th century and the say Wesley War and the 19th with Moody. Um could you, do you think you could put your finger on why it may be that we've not had one here? I mean,

00:39:53.550 - 00:40:11.560

an old enough you, not everybody would agree with me in that respect. Orr for instance, disagrees strongly. But then he thinks that uh a reawakening in a, in a Bush church is revival, but I don't think of revival in those terms. I think of it more

00:40:11.570 - 00:40:32.560

of the terms of the nationwide revival that occurred under the west of Whitfield in the 18th century. And uh why haven't we had it in this country? Who knows? Has it got something to do with the convict uh uh foundation of uh uh most of the

00:40:32.570 - 00:40:59.370

colonies, has it got something to do with the, what they call the tyranny of distance. Um It, there must be many contributing factors and this is a country of sun and surf country pressure and uh self indulgence, climate lens after that. And uh I don't know,

00:40:59.379 - 00:41:21.260

I don't know at all, but I don't think, well, what I really think is that if we take uh Sydney, for example, that began as a convent settlement with one chaplain, uh he was frowned upon and discouraged by the epistle of the day and who had

00:41:21.270 - 00:41:40.889

to struggle to hold his own. And when at last he built a church at his own expense, it was burnt down uh deliberately when he went home and broken heart that left the only one chaplain and the person of Marsden who yeah, have the strength of

00:41:40.899 - 00:42:02.939

an ox and, and defied them all. But again, he was working in a convict uh community and uh for 50 years, at least convicts outnumbered free settlers. And it was only slowly after the 1830 or so that the free surplus began to grow in number. But

00:42:02.949 - 00:42:25.449

not until the gold rush in the fifties that they really bad. What is always amazing to me is to think that in spite of that dreadful start from a spiritual point of view, Uh, somehow by the end of the century, the influence of the, the churches.

00:42:25.659 - 00:42:45.830

I don't mean only the end of the church had established itself, uh, both in the city and the country on the scale or within the influence which it had come to achieve. Remarkable. And that must have been something to do with the character of some of

00:42:45.840 - 00:43:04.000

the free settlers who came out. They must have come out bringing with them Christian tradition or interest or whatever. Uh, but it also had something to do with the character or the caliber of the men who came into the, into the ministry of that day of

00:43:04.010 - 00:43:32.879

their endeavors that they were speaking to an Anglo Saxon population or an Anglo Irish population. They weren't speaking to, as you say, the Europeans or Middle East Oriental syphilis. And perhaps since the year 1900 you choose the wrong date, uh, things that, um, slipped in another

00:43:32.889 - 00:43:59.050

direction. Hm. No, I don't think anyone can really measure the impact of World War one um should we say the spiritual outlook of uh Australian society? Certainly. So I grew up in the 19 twenties and that was uh a peace war reaction to conventional tradition, moral

00:43:59.060 - 00:44:22.750

standards and spiritual stains altogether. Or, and we can measure the, the, the further consequence of World War Two. There's no doubt about that. Both of those wars had a very serious uh reaction on, on Australia. And so with the economic compression of the early 19 thirties,

00:44:24.649 - 00:44:53.340

the result was that many families Griffith arm church life and church connection altogether. So when I let me see, after world war two, this is just an illustration Sunday sport of an organized character, almost unknown. And I can just remember it began Caribbean, Roman Catholic circles.

00:44:54.330 - 00:45:19.360

They play competition football on Sundays. But after World war two, it took off a pace. I was never stopped, I suppose in a way, the last uh big sporting body to the point was uh the cricket board was playing test match cricket on Sundays, which was

00:45:19.370 - 00:45:47.000

unheard of. Absolutely un. Yeah. And the secularization of Sunday, I was uh going on since 1949 or earlier that anybody will say since the end of the war at a tremendous rate. So it probably calls for a considerably greater degree of commitment on the part of

00:45:47.010 - 00:46:04.189

people to be churchgoers or to take their stand as Christian. Mm Maybe in the long run. That's not a bad thing. I know, I'm not speaking of it from that moment, you, but I think you ask me some question, which should do all that. No, it's

00:46:04.199 - 00:46:21.399

fine as I sit here and listen to it. I just wonder as a young clergyman just starting off where you go from here because at ST John's Park where I now am, there's 100 nationalities, 90 languages. I've counted up so far. Six countries representing one of

00:46:21.409 - 00:46:37.729

the congregations in a ministry. And yet, and yet, Paul tells us that the gospel is not only the gospel for salvation, but the one that breaks down the barriers between nations. And I guess I long to see the day when that is actually a reality in

00:46:37.739 - 00:46:55.020

flesh and blood in churches where there are people from all nationalities in my area. At the moment, we've got the Croatians and the Serbians grieving over Yugoslavia. And it would be great to see those representatives of those communities in the church not having animosity against one

00:46:55.030 - 00:47:12.290

another any longer. So I just wonder, you know, what's going on? Is it part of me says, does God not want to do something anymore? Part of me says is the church being disobedient? I guess I'm looking for the answer to why it's not happening as

00:47:13.219 - 00:47:34.860

that has in the past like the nine, the 18 hundreds, the revivals and I was ordained uh when I went, when I went through more college, for instance, when I went when I was at the university that was in the heart of the depression. And when

00:47:34.870 - 00:48:03.169

I was ordained, the ectomy depressing and distressing situation in which to work. But I don't think it was worse than the situation that you're describing. Now. The situation we're describing as it is today is I use it. I think it calls for a lot of patience,

00:48:03.179 - 00:48:23.340

a lot of faith, a lot of perseverance. We do the thing that we are called to do. It is the gospel with which we will entrust with. We continue to witness as God gives us grace through and they uh effectiveness of our ministry is my pleasure

00:48:23.350 - 00:48:41.060

to in numbers that are uh faith for us. Yeah. So I keep hearing it, I keep telling myself that, but I keep seeing people not being converted. I guess that's a, the frustration. They need to learn to live with you to stand that. And so often

00:48:41.070 - 00:48:57.010

one sees somebody who seems so near the kingdom and yet won't. I can think of two at this moment with whom I've had a lot to do. They won't sort of move over the border. You grab them by the scruff of the neck and drag them

00:48:57.020 - 00:49:17.840

in. But I was hoping you'd tell me. So some people are very gifted in that. There is fact. Yes, I only have a couple of other questions if I may or a view wi with Archbishop Mole. I understand that his election in 1933 was a watershed

00:49:17.870 - 00:49:37.850

for the Diocese of Sydney for it. Uh put the diocese on a fairly uh straight evangelical track. It's continued in that direction for the last 60 years. At the time. As I understand it, there were two factions of the evangelicals and the liberal evangelicals for want

00:49:37.860 - 00:49:59.100

of better terms. And there had been a long tradition uh in the Keswick line with people like Nathaniel Jones and uh Wright, who seem to be influenced by Keswick and the Keswick conventions and their holiness um bias. And that'll be going off from the years of

00:49:59.110 - 00:50:21.739

Grubs mission. Just wonder how is it that a man who stood shou head and shoulders above the rest of the world in terms of evangelical faith who was working in China end up as archbishop in Sydney, Australia and um activity phrasing my question. Why is it

00:50:21.750 - 00:50:41.399

that, that loan um that the male comes to the, to the, to the surface in 1933 we've had such a long tradition at that point in time with kick and a uh and a more liberal view of, of evangelicalism. Can me and who had this tradition?

00:50:41.639 - 00:50:59.760

Sydney, didn't, didn't you have a uh there's two factions and just in the previous archbishops and uh principals of more college have been more liberal and more kissing all of a sudden, my kids were associating being li with being predicated. Maybe I don't understand it full

00:50:59.770 - 00:51:30.250

enough. Well enough, two days, that would be the right. I know. I have tried to set it out and somewhere I right. It's a long story and there's no short answer to it. The situation in Sydney reflected the situation in England evangelicals at the turn of

00:51:30.260 - 00:51:54.179

the century, in England and in Sydney, uh whatever usually lined up as it were against tracts. So you have the Anglo Catholic and you had the evangelical and there was largely a matter of evangelical hostility to sacramental and Roman influence and all the rest of it,

00:51:54.189 - 00:52:30.270

you see, uh and the evangelicals by and large didn't draw a line of demarcation between a conservative view of Holy Scripture as the word of God, a final authoritative utterance and a liberal view of Holy Scripture which allowed for flexibility uh that textual criticism and uh

00:52:30.280 - 00:52:57.379

recognition of what was really binding or otherwise. Yeah, that situation led to a certain uh uneasiness within evangelical circles, but it only developed slowly and timber began to come to a head after World War one in England with the, when the great split in C MS

00:52:57.389 - 00:53:17.800

took place and the BC MS High or as a separate missionary society in the Bible and church and society uh standing strongly for uh the authority and inspiration of Holy Scripture as against C MS. For the more liberal view of Holy Scripture was nothing to do

00:53:17.810 - 00:53:40.689

with K uh here in Sydney. Archbishop Wright had been one of the primary movers before he ever came to Sydney in the movement that came over and of an evangelical group move at a EGM. That was a movement which believe that men ought to study the

00:53:40.699 - 00:54:01.709

scriptures. But that uh uh with a liberal approach, uh uh believing that reason was of nearly equal authority with scripture as a guide to what one should believe. Uh He brought out two men who were to be very influential for 25 years for Dean, the a

00:54:01.719 - 00:54:24.979

talker and principal of War College DJ Davies, each of whom was evangelical in the sense of being anti Anglo Catholic, but each of whom was liberal in the sense of being opposed to the more conservative view of holy scripture. The end result was that when Archbishop

00:54:24.989 - 00:54:48.659

Wright died, those who are loosely called evangelicals in the Diocese of Sydney were really divided into two camps. Uh although the division had never been formalized, but there were those who would follow the lead of say Dean Torbett, who at the time was the chairman or

00:54:48.669 - 00:55:09.580

president, whichever is the right word of the Anglican church meeting that showed what sort of position he held Torbett and Davies and those who followed the lead of the uh pre archbishop Wright and evangelicals who had grown up under cannon, Jones like Langford Smith of Summer

00:55:09.590 - 00:55:32.370

Hill and men of that. And so when the nomination of a for a new archbishop took place, the Tor M Davies School. Put forward the name of a man named Archbishop H he was an evangelical but a liberal. And the others school put forward the name

00:55:32.379 - 00:55:47.540

of Moe who had been in Sydney a year or two before and had created a great impression by his preaching or his presence is as pose and by the record of his missionary service and so on, he made a great appeal that he came out here

00:55:47.929 - 00:56:12.050

just by his personality. Well, he was elected and the liberal evangelicals really took it to heart. I I feel bad that I think that that um and there's no doubt the last bit of m tried to be fair to all at the same time, to strengthen

00:56:12.060 - 00:56:32.429

in every way that he could be evangelical character of the diocese. And uh as his episcopal had lasted for 25 years, he was able to see an enormous change take place in the providence of God, both tor but the d he died within a year or

00:56:32.439 - 00:56:49.530

two of his arrival. I was able to appoint TC Hammond as the principal of Moore College. Moore College was in the shambles. Anyone who knows more college today simply cannot imagine what more college had been like. The more college through a child as a student, I

00:56:49.540 - 00:57:10.310

only stayed there for five terms. But uh from any point of view, material, physical uh spiritual, intellectual law college was absolutely financial. It was, it was a way in the dark. So an Archbishop Mole who had spent 10 years on the staff of Wicklow College in

00:57:10.320 - 00:57:32.639

Toronto. I very bad of a joggle whiff incidentally is no longer the whit of those days. It's a rough sadly enough, but in those days Wickliffe was a tremendously strong evangelical college. Uh He wanted to see something like that was established in Sydney. And uh while

00:57:32.649 - 00:57:56.070

it, while TC Hammond provided the intellectual strength and the theological strength archbishop m was he provided the pride and the vision and the determination to uh see the college established on different lines. Was it Noel appointed DVKDVX. That was the last appointment that he made in

00:57:56.080 - 00:58:17.330

his lifetime made just before he died. There was another significant appointment that he made, wasn't it? It certainly was. And I was the last question he concentrated and brought up was the last see who succeeded me. This last appointment I made we were you a um

00:58:17.790 - 00:58:32.350

a student of Noel? Like I know that you've studied him because you've written a couple of chapters and a couple of books on on? No. Were you um a student in another sense? Did he train you in any area? Train me? Did he influence you? Oh,

00:58:32.360 - 00:58:49.800

he had a profound influence on me. I don't know whether he thought of as training me, but I was trained by Gu Sydney through the close association with him. Were you a, a an archdeacon before bishop or through college. How, how is it that you had

00:58:49.810 - 00:59:16.580

a class association with? My, let's be something that meant to him. So he had a way of singling out individuals who he thought, I suppose he thought would, it's hard to say. Then he put his finger on, you know, a number of people and um, he

00:59:16.590 - 00:59:35.409

encouraged them and in a sense, cultivated them and uh devolved responsibilities on them and so on and so on and they didn't know what he was doing. But in retrospect, I doubt he was preparing them for some future responsibility. That would be true. We'll say Bishop

00:59:36.090 - 00:59:53.340

H Graham Gilb, be true. A whole lot of, a lot of people. It was very astute in that way, phone touch. Who was the evangelical he was under in uh Riff. Was that uh as you mean when he was a good college, the principal was a

00:59:53.350 - 01:00:16.000

man named Doctor Omera. Thanks. Um I've read about Billy Graham to go back to him again in the 19 fifties that he was speaking with a man by the name of uh Charles Troutman about the possibility of setting up a uh Christian University college to train

01:00:16.010 - 01:00:34.360

leaders, a uh a Wheaton college even to set up here. Did you know anything about that? Yeah, I did. No, no problem. And uh one more, I think in the 19 forties and fifties, you mentioned that, that built up a way for Billy Graham to come

01:00:34.370 - 01:00:54.449

and ride on the 1959 crusade. I've read of, um, almost fantastic stories where in the fifties, uh, the cathedrals would be filled to overflowing with thousands upon thousands of people listening to people preach. It's Sunday. Um, do you know what is, is there any reason I

01:00:54.459 - 01:01:11.340

built that led to that build up? Can you see factors that, that did, that? I wouldn't have said it was filled with thousands of people at the sun. But it did have a, because the people is a difficult place, it doesn't have a parish to draw

01:01:11.550 - 01:01:38.919

on. It's always got in a sense of floating population or congregation or, or else, um, a very eclectic one with people coming in from outlying areas. Uh Well, the cathedral was without a dean to how long from the time of Dean Torbett's death until the appointment

01:01:38.929 - 01:01:59.439

of Dr Babbage? Uh I suppose the cathedral went through a lean time. Doctor Babbage undoubtedly brought to the cathedral a tremendous impulse. You could talk to him. I'm sure he'd be glad that he was here on Monday. Actually. Uh He came in young and fresh and

01:01:59.449 - 01:02:26.820

full of ideas and uh a great deal of determination and pride and he really has set things in motion and of course, he came at a good time. That's the same, that was part of that, the post war spiritual uh resurgence that uh Sydney was to

01:02:27.139 - 01:02:55.320

witness. Uh I suppose the, the one, ok, moment as it were during his time as Dean, when there might have been almost thousands, it was during the Brian Green mission. Can and Brian Green came out from England uh hold the mission which certainly attracted enormous numbers.

01:02:55.370 - 01:03:14.139

Anyway. I, I think you could well ask Doctor Babbage about that. And Doctor Babbage was also the chairman of the executive committee in Melbourne in 1959 for the grand crusade, as you probably know. So you could consider in view on that. I try, you know. Thank

01:03:14.149 - 01:03:30.840

you. Yeah, I don't know. I answer the question. No, it's just maybe there are no uh maybe there is little rhyme and reason as to why there is a uh a build up in one generation where the ground is prepared for the gospel and not in

01:03:30.850 - 01:03:55.179

another generation except to say that God is sovereign and he does as he wills that he was a guy. Yes. Yes. It seems like that in England r apply England from the time of the restoration to spiritual reawakening in the 18th century. Are you ready to

01:03:55.290 - 01:04:20.229

plan? Well, the evangelical movement continued fairly strong throughout the 19th century. It lost the sharp es that it had under the original they your post. And uh on the h until the post World War two phase and the leadership of people like John Scott, it's been

01:04:20.239 - 01:04:40.090

pretty low watering and, but there's been a great surge in it and it just looks like it's picking up with, uh John Stotts work and Dick Lucas and then Alistair mcgrath coming along. I understand he's a, he's a, he's a fam, he just puts out books,

01:04:40.709 - 01:04:55.820

uh, just that just send the poor out of him who, uh seems to be, someone said to me that he's, looks like he's the man who will take on John Stotts Mantle. I uh, I don't know, I don't know, might know of him, but apparently he's

01:04:55.830 - 01:05:16.510

quite brilliant and a thoroughly evangelical at the same time. Now, you mentioned that you're doing this thesis for something at the University of New South Wales History. They approved of the subject. That's interesting. Professor Patrick o'farrell is uh my supervisor who is he, I don't know

01:05:16.520 - 01:05:37.239

anyone out there. He's uh he's the religious historian um and Catholic to the eye teeth, but he's agreed to supervise me. Well, we made an approach to the Roman Cat X in 19 about the 79 crusade to see if they would be prepared in any way

01:05:37.250 - 01:06:07.189

to uh not to endorse it. It needs to uh or commended or to express their good will for Roman Catholic participation. Um They would not uh join any sponsoring committee in an invitation to Billy Graham and they would not uh officially endorse the police say. But

01:06:07.199 - 01:06:29.919

um my recollection is that our Cardinal Green? Was it? Uh Yes, Mr Bain. Father of Freeman indicated that he would not place any obstacle in the way of Roman Catholic attendance. Well, that was a big advance, say in 1959. And I know that's of any interest

01:06:29.929 - 01:06:54.830

to your supervisor. So I'll tell you another thing. It's not quite the same, but the chancellor of the university became Sir Charles mcdonald. Uh he was a very eminent surgeon. Uh and he was a 11 tablet and I think he was a papal knight. Uh He

01:06:54.840 - 01:07:20.879

was always very supportive of me and I liked him very much. Yeah, Archbishop Mole had begun an annual service for the university. That was certainly only in those days it lapsed after Archbishop Mole died. I tried to revive it and it still goes on in a

01:07:20.889 - 01:07:45.000

slightly different form. I believe today as a service for tertiary education or something or other doesn't draw, it doesn't have quite the same drawing card that it did originally. But sir Charles mcdonald always came and I asked him if he would be happy to read a

01:07:45.010 - 01:08:05.969

lesson. I remember it so well. He uh he said r well, he would love to do so, but he was afraid he would not be able to accept and asked him why to see permission would never be given by his own church. Is that right? Well,

01:08:05.979 - 01:08:23.979

I said, uh would you mind if I were to ring up car? No, knew who it was. And uh just say to him that we hold this annual service for the universities that, uh we always invite the chancellors to be present and that we like uh

01:08:24.990 - 01:08:43.990

somebody in, I was in that kind of position to read a lesson. And would he have the infection? Were I to invite a present chance at the University of Sydney? I'm not saying we'd take the conversation. It was so funny. The cardinal said, what kind of

01:08:44.000 - 01:09:04.720

service is it? And I said, it's a service of morning prayer. Oh, he said it's not a mass. No, no, I said no. But my, uh, honestly, that's all right. I was a child. He was very pleased. You? Interesting. You see, that was the reaction in

01:09:04.729 - 01:09:30.140

those days. It was uh sir Charles was a, as I said, a papal knight, but he wouldn't step outside the boundaries of what his own church uh might require. Mm. It's a different generation. To me it is understanding and comprehending it. Yes. Well, more relaxed now

01:09:30.609 - 01:09:50.708

than it was then. Mhm. Well, I'm, I'm doing this not just for academic reasons. I got better things to do with my time than just academia. I'm actually trying to work out what I can learn from history in order to make a greater impact in the,

01:09:50.719 - 01:10:12.500

in the patch of ground that God has given me to work in. So I'm hoping that uh what comes through would be obeyed to my parish ministry. Mhm. It's frustrating sometimes. Yes. I, yes, but I think we do have to try and learn the lessons that

01:10:12.939 - 01:10:35.770

the history of the work of God revives and both in the lean times and in the good times. And in the end, I think one must be driven back to the, they should take it. God is a God of grace. I don't suppose anything today could

01:10:35.779 - 01:11:08.330

look darker, more discouraging, more hopeless really than the England of the early 18th century. Mm. When Wesley Wesley and mcbeal found themselves literally excluded from churches and J Cooper and the country was under that cloud of rationalism and so on when the lot of the working

01:11:08.339 - 01:11:28.370

class people with one of deprivation and misery and yet what an amazing year took place I think has been enormous encouragement by, again, back to the evangelical fathers. Yes. Yes. So it's true. I, I worked in Lithgow for three years as a curate and uh they

01:11:28.379 - 01:11:44.259

often reflected on is it uh Woodfield who was the preachers of the coal mines? And I thought they were glorious days. But then I read that uh he used to get pelted by rocks and coal and would still preach on public address system. They, they, they,

01:11:46.870 - 01:12:00.899

it was just, just uh preaching the gospel, wasn't it? They also preached to the needs too, didn't they? The people? I remember one sermon I read a good few and said he preached on a passage from Isaiah and he picked up on the miner's sense of

01:12:00.910 - 01:12:19.479

being oppressed and said, God doesn't like it either. And that led to people being converted. Mhm. It's just a, I suppose it might be true to say that in a less sophisticated age, uh, people had a, a more realistic, uh, sense that there was a hell

01:12:19.490 - 01:12:42.620

as there was a heavy need than they have today. Many people would describe the idea of hell and don't know really what they mean when they think of heaven. That's right. There was a certain realism when they got down to the bottom. In those, I've got

01:12:42.629 - 01:13:12.600

that here is I often think that uh George Whitfield was undoubtedly the, the evangelist power, excellence of the 18th century. Hm, perhaps the greatest evangelist in the English language that the world is at sea. The do ludi was the evangelist pro excellence of the 19th century

01:13:13.359 - 01:13:32.779

and that Billy Graham was such in the 20th century, all three exercised a ministry on both sides of the Atlantic and Billy is the first to, to do it in the southern hemisphere. Is that right? Yes. But I was just thinking, you know, that uh aspect

01:13:32.790 - 01:14:01.089

of it, that George Whitfield had all the guests. And 1 may believe that that kind of contemporaries that the preacher could ever wish for, with a, a wonderful voice, with tremendous carrying capacity, good uh natural theatrical, um skill for dramatic presentation. And it must have been

01:14:01.100 - 01:14:24.850

very dramatic at times with intense uh emotional feeling because he was had the pause while tears ran down his cheeks, but with a passion for the gospel, which can hardly be questioned. I've been to some of the places associated with George rfid and it's, it's very

01:14:24.859 - 01:14:50.459

unprecedent in Massachusetts where he eventually died in Massachusetts. But, uh, there's a rock, uh, to which I must take a, or to climb up to the top of that rock takes a bit of doing without a matter you want to do it. Um, he had to

01:14:50.470 - 01:15:08.160

stand on the top of that rock while the crowd stood in hundreds in the, in what we would call a paddock down below the woods further out. And it made a natural, uh, purpose of, uh, for him, whether he could see and be seen where he

01:15:08.169 - 01:15:32.410

could speak and be heard. And there are a lot of places in New England which are associated with George Whitfield. The most interesting of all is probably the house in which he died. Uh, that still stands. He arrived there after, well, he'd been writing and preaching

01:15:32.419 - 01:15:53.779

for days. She was very ill on the final day, but he arrived there in the evening of the day, exhausted. Um, he had suffered and he worshiped with the family and, and he took his candle to go upstairs to the, to his room and he paused

01:15:53.790 - 01:16:12.529

as he climbed the stairs and turned and looked round on his host and the others were and began to speak again and is taken to 10 C and then he went up to his room where they found him gone in the morning. Now, that house today

01:16:12.810 - 01:16:31.879

has a partition which goes down the central stairway. It's been divided in two. But otherwise it just as it was when Whitfield was there, I found it fascinating to you and you, and it's amazing men, aren't they? Those three, the three men? Good feel moody and

01:16:31.890 - 01:16:51.819

groan. Yes. Well, you see when you last, why Billy Graham, why not John Chuck? And why not, you know, Australian label, uh what you might say, why do, maybe he didn't seem to have anything to offer or why would the, hm I think of what John

01:16:51.830 - 01:17:08.589

Newton said about uh the evangelicals of his day. If any man, I were to ask him who was second as a, as the, as the most influential preacher he had ever heard, he would be hard put to it to choose between half a dozen or more.

01:17:09.299 - 01:17:32.740

But as for the first I got the exact language, uh George Whitfield was so far above and beyond all of us that there is no question. He was a far greater preacher than yes different preacher altogether. If 1 may judge by words and their sermons, I

01:17:32.750 - 01:17:49.419

had the opportunity to go to America last year and go to a church at Willow Creek. Um, Chicago where a member named Bill Heels is ministry and Bill seems to be in the same league as Billy Graham, he just seems to be, I ask Don Carson

01:17:49.430 - 01:18:05.390

about him. And uh Don said that Bill is just a man that's been raised by God. Uh Bill Hels has a congregation of some 15,000 people and it's been going for 18 years, this, this congregation, this church. And when I was there, I sat next to

01:18:05.399 - 01:18:19.759

a friend who went with me or I went with and after a couple of sessions, we just sat back and I turned to this friend and said, do you know anybody like this man? Should not? And then uh some people we met from Pittsburgh were there

01:18:19.770 - 01:18:43.979

and they said, we know Billy Bill Heels far better after three days than the men we've been ministering with for five and 10 years. Hes Hybels Dutch from Dutch before back. He, when you spoke about Billy Graham's trans transparency, it's what we saw in Bill heels,

01:18:44.160 - 01:18:59.410

not a, not a uh a put on, but it was just a terribly humble meeting. I remember reading poo at tributes. And one of the things that poll attributes to Moody is that uh Moody said one day, um he heard someone say to him, there's not

01:18:59.419 - 01:19:17.660

yet been a man who will consecrate himself totally. And de Moody said I will be that man. Yes. And it seems that Whitfield was the same that these are people who gave themselves totally good heels is on the same thing. Total. Total uh He calls it

01:19:17.669 - 01:19:33.069

abandonment. I wonder whether that I don't want to romanticize it, but that seems to be an extremely key that if someone is prepared and, and not, it's kind of about, I don't want to be manipulative of God because you cannot manipulate him. But to say here

01:19:33.080 - 01:19:50.140

am I do with major players? I wonder whether that is at least one of the key elements apart from the fact that Whitfield, Moody and Graham were characters like all of them diamonds. Although Moody, from what you've said, a very rough diamond, I wonder where they

01:19:50.149 - 01:20:13.879

are there. I wonder where the God, we did raise up someone in Australia to do the same thing for a number even better if there's a number of main advisor. Hm. Perhaps in a way the man in Australia most like that in my recollection would have

01:20:13.890 - 01:20:36.640

been hs Bigbie, the father of the four Begbie brothers or the grandfather of 10 for he was the big b in the 19 hundreds, early 19 hundreds. Yes. Yes. He lived up to 1951. I think it was 52. He, he was a man that you would

01:20:36.649 - 01:20:57.029

say was a highly dedicated man. The that I couldn't discern anything that seemed to contradict it. And uh someone was here the other day, I was saying, I've never heard anyone who, when he preached seemed to preach with every fiber of his being, you know, his

01:20:57.040 - 01:21:14.250

eyes would shine and spark in his head would go from right to left and I put it down and his arms would be there. It wasn't put on, he couldn't do other. Why did that? I'd be so giddy, I couldn't think straight. But, uh, there's a

01:21:14.259 - 01:21:35.259

sort of vitality about him, you know, he was, he had a great ministry but it wasn't a ministry on the scale of, I think he was or something. So I have to, we have to acknowledge that God is sovereign and of the 12 whom he chose

01:21:35.279 - 01:21:50.339

that they might be with him and that he might send them forth to peace. They were all as it were in the front rank. You know, there was only one really wasn't a two, there was only three. Yes. Yes, I was gonna ask you. There's a

01:21:50.350 - 01:22:06.549

question I came to mine. I was gonna ask you just, just flitted away again. He lost his, it'll come to me, you know, I'm halfway home. Uh The over the days where there would be uh something that would be grand. That would, that's what I was

01:22:06.560 - 01:22:22.240

gonna ask. You just came back in Matthew 1618, Jesus said on this rock or if you take Doctor Knox's view before this rock, I will build my church. And I heard that uh it's in a recent RT R article where he uh was doing an article

01:22:22.250 - 01:22:42.390

for Doctor Swanton, talked about the, the uh preposition epi and made parallels between Jesus and Matthew 16. And then what Moses was saying in Deos 19 and joining the parallel between that he's talking about the church and that in Exos 19, before God is the congregation

01:22:42.399 - 01:22:57.990

put together. And in, in Matthew 16, Doctor Knox is arguing that uh before Jesus the rock, he would build his church. But anyway, the thing that's interesting for me is that not only is Jesus building his church, but he then goes on to say, and the

01:22:58.000 - 01:23:18.169

gates of hell will not prevail against it. The doctor Knox goes on and says that there will be no death in this church. No death, death, death, death will not prevail against this church. Whereas it did against Israel. I've heard another man say that um it's,

01:23:18.200 - 01:23:34.529

he says the impression he'd given is that the church will be on the move and Satan's Kingdom will have no answer to it. It cannot prevail against the church as it moves. Just, it appeals to me because it suits my character. The, do you have any

01:23:34.540 - 01:23:52.200

thoughts on that? Yes, I'm all ears. Well, my conclusion about uh and on this rock, I will build my church is that there can be no absolute assurance as to whether he meant thou art Peter and you are the rock on which I will build my

01:23:52.209 - 01:24:11.919

church or whether he meant that you are uh Peter and uh on your confession that I am the priest. Uh I will build my church or what he meant. You are Peter, you are the man of rock and I am the rock. You are, you are

01:24:11.930 - 01:24:25.850

a piece of the rock as it were. But I am the rock you saw from which I will build my church. Yes, I think it was the building. So there is the rock on which the church is, what it will be built, is being built and

01:24:25.859 - 01:24:45.919

will be built. But the gates of hell, I think uh I think there's a much misunderstood phrase partly because we have uh all Christian soldiers ringing in our ears. And uh what does it mean that the church is on the march against the gates of hell?

01:24:45.930 - 01:25:08.720

Or the gates of hell are going to be thrown open and the hosts of state are going to surge through it and either way it will not. I don't think it's either. I think the gates is a well known old Testament. Uh uh Hey j of

01:25:08.729 - 01:25:33.189

the of the cities of the Israel or Palestine. It was in the gate of the city. That council was taken, justice was administered. People came with their complaints, petitions were presented, new business was transacted. It was in the gate of the city that uh Boaz carried

01:25:33.200 - 01:25:49.359

out the transaction by which he was able to deal with. It was in the gate of the city that Amsterdam won the hearts of the people from David. Uh It was in the gate of the city that uh you know, the king uh conferred with uh

01:25:49.370 - 01:26:13.479

his noble at the time. And uh the armies of Syria was came up against Jerusalem. And the gate was the gates of a city were like the, the place where where all the strategy, strategy, the policy, the decision making took place. And so I think the

01:26:13.490 - 01:26:37.370

gates of hell, the gates, I like those gates in the Testament, the place where I'm at the uh stratagems of the evil and all his, wow, uh where, no matter what is done, they will not avail, I guess the church which he will find, which is

01:26:37.379 - 01:26:54.129

a very different view from perhaps no way, except not the popular. We, well, I don't know what the popular view is anymore. It used to be, I think, well, it has been for my generation that we used to read that and think ah the church is

01:26:54.140 - 01:27:08.319

a mighty fortress and, and Satan won't get in. Yeah. So what you're saying, and what I hear you saying is that no, no, no, the church will, will grow and Satan can't do a thing about it. Is that what I hear that Satan may uh part

01:27:08.479 - 01:27:27.319

of the plan. Uh But uh all of his will fail there. A good thing for that for me as a young minister is that Jesus built this church and I just have to play my part. That's right. Such a good time. Well, Bishop, I'm very grateful

01:27:27.330 - 01:27:27.810

for your time.