00:00:00.670 - 00:00:24.260

I, I was a missionary for 11 years and without a bad experience in my, that New York publishers asked for a book when I was a precipitator in the writing field. I had no idea of ever writing professionally. I come from five generations of writers to

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go look at the right genes. Um The college I was encouraged, he was all encouraged and you wish for reading but have been writing ever since the 13 to be fixed at present. I'm what they call writers residence at Gordon College University. The term is really

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a very loose one wanted to move in my case that I have agreed to give five lectures per year, some on some off campus. But the primary reason that the college wanted it for the application so that as I travel around with my come up and

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say, where's the, what about the public speaking is that followed similarly from your writing? Yes. People just seem to assume that if you've written a book that you can speak, it was nice back in the stage for 20 years. Yeah. And this is your first visit

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to Australia and you won't see a lot I understand that he came with Mil and home again. Oh, to India. So perhaps next time perhaps you stay, might be a little bit longer. And perhaps even, um, one of my thoughts is to expose you to Sydney

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television and the Sydney secular media because I think often we, we miss out so much, there's so much anti in the secular paper, anti-christ things, you know, very rarely do we get that opportunity of putting somebody of a high caliber into the secular press. So I'd

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like to put that little plug in for next time you come. If you keep a day, I feel like your sleeve for Sydney Press the other night, you mentioned feminism. And was it right? If I say to you that you said that you are anti of

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the feminist movement right now, do you think the growth of the feminist movement is the result of or a reaction against the way that men were treating and are treating women generally? I think that's part of the reason I think in our country, it's a logical

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succession to all of us called liberation Talk. We had a lot of controversy about blacks and whites for years, you know, equality and all that. And the mistake was made. Then of assuming that a black person's freedom lay in becoming as polite as possible. It took

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a while. Therefore, someone recognized it. Black and beautiful does not have his freedom of becoming white. And I think that exactly the same mistake is being made now by the feminists making us feel that we need to compete with men or prove something and try to

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be equal and try to be interchangeable. Essentially. I regard the women's so-called women's issue as a men's issue. And I really believe that men have abdicated the position of authority in a truly biblical sense. They think of authority as autism or tyranny or cruelty. Naturally, women

00:03:41.940 - 00:04:04.860

have reactive. But in Maine, it hasn't been tearing and cruelty and autism. It has been simply an abdication of their position. The ones who take responsibility, women ought to be taken care of and it ought to be protected and cherished. And of course, I'm the last

00:04:04.869 - 00:04:26.009

person to say that it's all the next one, a bunch of miserable offenders and women against men and wanting to run. Thank you, sir. Before I much that is to me. So that the other night you mentioned that somebody said those concepts were Victorian and you

00:04:26.019 - 00:04:46.429

said they were pre Victorian a lot older than that. So that the concept of the feminist movement you think is then therefore against biblical teaching. I think that the feminist movement essentially, I've read a great deal of what both the Christian non-christian feminists have written and

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the least common denominator is the belief that men and women are equal and interchangeable with the exception of what the feminists would call a relatively trivial matter of anatomy. And as a Christian, I reject that idea completely because I think that the primary difference between women

00:05:06.589 - 00:05:29.980

is a theological, one can be more important than new biology. So I oppose political nerves to make many women equal. Because I believe that is the original plan of God. That one should be in the initiator, the responder that one should be the protector and provider.

00:05:30.649 - 00:05:54.850

Women are forced into the position of having to be providers, not having the protection. Then you're in real trouble. And any person can say that there are many differences of knowledge come you mentioned political moves. Um But thank you, Anthony. Um there's been a lot of

00:05:54.890 - 00:06:11.739

literature now out to us on the Christian Kings concerning the recent United Nations legislation. And I must confess, I don't know a real lot about that. But do you think that Christians do enough to counter the political moves that happen? In other words, the erosion of

00:06:11.750 - 00:06:27.119

our own things that we stand for. Do you think we do enough to try and counter that? Well, of course, I know nothing about Australia but I know that we had, we recently had the Equal Rights amendment completed in our country, which was a tremendous surprise

00:06:27.730 - 00:06:47.980

to everybody indicated that at the grassroots women do not want equality. And when you say do Christians do enough, I firmly believe that it was because of Christians that that happened. And the woman that I know they tell me she's recently been in Australia speaking, but

00:06:48.250 - 00:07:06.380

she, she is a Christian and almost single-handedly watched the rights movement. So I have to say that I thank God for the Christian did pose that and, and prayed and worked their heads off the foot because the movie is tremendously powerful. I think they were just

00:07:06.859 - 00:07:23.950

absolutely shocked. So that there is that if, if Christians do things, there is that positive potential of, of making sure that we can influence legislation. Um The question I was asked to ask you by a lady if more women were in positions of power, do you

00:07:23.959 - 00:07:46.070

think there'd be a deceleration in the arms race? There might be, I can't see anything h all that. In other words, I think she was trying to say, are, are, are women more peace loving than men. Well, the whole idea of peace is just such a

00:07:46.079 - 00:08:00.600

muddy area. People don't define it at all. I mean, everybody likes the idea of peace, a man in the world that doesn't in a vague and general way like the idea of peace. But when we're talking about peace, I think the Christians very often confuse the

00:08:00.609 - 00:08:17.140

peace of God and the peace that has understanding the world peace is no connection at all. I could pick two of the, the war horses, Ava for glory. I think, you know, we should probably need our balance of protection and our balance of spiritual input to

00:08:17.149 - 00:08:38.299

balance the two of them. Um a couple of things, the common questions asked by young people say in the United States, what would like one or two of those? What is their main concerns in the campuses? Well, my experience of course is primarily Christian students at

00:08:38.309 - 00:08:58.239

the top of the list seems to be. How can I find out what God wants me to do? It's earnest Christians, they didn't care otherwise we were interested in doing work on. But that seems to be a major issue. And the whole question of sexuality become

00:08:59.570 - 00:09:20.599

enormously confused because of the feminist woman. I see that as being the worst results of it, I really become a woman as a demonic. I was confused, young people, particularly the identity question is a huge one and young people don't even seem to be dating very

00:09:20.609 - 00:09:44.429

much anymore because the men don't know what is expected of them. They don't dare open the door for a woman or they get their pushed down there. Really? This is the source of many of the questions, what does matter? It was a macho one, 15 on,

00:09:44.440 - 00:09:57.780

on, on your addresses and, and a lot of it for us all, we sort of tend to think of, you know, this is the walk that we've had. And so this has given us the experiences for the, for the future. What would be your role as

00:09:57.789 - 00:10:20.270

you see it in the few years to come? As you go around visiting people and talking, what's the main um or lesson that you want to teach. If I define my own goal is simply to love God and to make God love anything at all that

00:10:20.280 - 00:10:37.049

I can do or say. And that's what I have to do. II, I can't see I have a particular message other than what God gives me at a given time. All I have to say is is in my books. So, so it's to love God and

00:10:37.059 - 00:10:56.320

to, and to trust in their values, which I mean, now just to conclude, have you anything um in particular that you'd like to say, I'm thinking here of in the Blue Mountains area. This is what it's really for. Um We have a lot of ISMs, we

00:10:56.330 - 00:11:13.909

have a lot of the feminist movement, our women's Refuge Center, for example, is very pro abortion. And that's one of the reasons I really wanted to try and get a um an inside into the local r. Now, is there anything particularly that you can see that

00:11:13.919 - 00:11:34.030

needs to be said because Australia generally follows America in lots of things. So is there a sort of a trend that we need to be careful of that might have gone through the States that could even be making its presence felt here? Mhm In size answer.

00:11:36.380 - 00:12:02.849

Uh The abortion question also is based on our understanding of what human life really means. Question about sexuality. Divorce, abortion. The roles of men and women in the church and society and home are all dependent upon our understanding of what God had in mind when he

00:12:02.859 - 00:12:25.650

made us creatures. And to me, it's an enormous irony that the same people who deplore the terms male, female, masculine, feminine and want to be called persons are the same. They are the same people who will not acknowledge that. What is going in the garbage pail

00:12:25.859 - 00:12:44.539

in the abortion clinic is a person. They're trying to reshape the language in order to reshape our thinking. And they've done a very good job because even Christians have bought this idea person rather than womanhood and manhood. And as for the question of abortion, I believe

00:12:44.549 - 00:13:05.820

that God is because God has created us in his own image and bring it into man, the breath of life we have to pay that might is sacred regardless of the size of the help. The only relevant question about abortion to me is because a person

00:13:06.520 - 00:13:23.809

and there is a person in the world that can deny it. And we do not know when human life begins. It's logical to assume that it begins in conception who can prove otherwise and unless we can prove otherwise, what right do we have over that life.

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The women's liberation movement I think is a bitter form of bondage. Abortion is just one of their tenants of saying we will belong to ourselves. We can run our own lives. We can do what we want that. This week, child, this person through the constitution that

00:13:49.679 - 00:14:11.039

require their own body to make so really to make things really simple. It comes back to the problems of the world, the likes of um abortion, women's liberation, um possibly even unemployment. And these massive problems really come down to a spiritual level. Yes, God who is

00:14:11.049 - 00:14:32.559

in charge, there's a son of God who created him. He has a purpose to find it's a straight edge. Thank you Elizabeth. And do you want to ask anything? I just wanted to go back on one. But in case you use anything about peace or the

00:14:32.710 - 00:14:57.320

problem, just uh mention that the presupposition that most people have on the other side of the world, just the whole basis of this army, the other forces will react the same way that we must, this thing has a good illustration to, to use that I know

00:14:57.330 - 00:15:13.260

what you're talking about. Like it takes quite a long kind of job. Uh Well, I mean, just if you want on tape and you can then take it or not. The question of time. I, I haven't, I have to really go back and go for the

00:15:13.320 - 00:15:29.090

kids. I'll catch you on your next trip to see. The argument is probably not as big an issue in the Blue Mountains as the, the women's feminist thing is because there's a lot of state government money goes into their centers and, and like we had a

00:15:29.099 - 00:15:41.820

classic of example where a lady was pregnant, married one of the pregnancy tests and went to the center rather than to the doctor. And they came back and they said, yes, you're pregnant. When do you want the abortion? And that's, that's the sort of thing that

00:15:41.830 - 00:16:02.250

we're really, it's state government funded and it's helped by the council. And, you know, and that's, they're always in the paper and that's what I really wanted to use the feminist attack or approach to begin with to bring in the, the, the gospel law. I think

00:16:03.609 - 00:16:26.340

it be for who wrote the feminist leaders of the so called the States has recently some of the state and realizes beginning to realize what a half at the beginning that it was nonsense. He says we've gone too far and women are wondering what they really

00:16:26.469 - 00:16:40.630

need for. All they're supposed to do is live for suddenly they could be 35 to wake up to the fact that they missed out on what a woman was supposed to do in the first place. And she has acknowledged this. I think it was her daughter

00:16:40.640 - 00:17:20.500

that brought it to her daughter said, look, you've had it all. We haven't had a chance. All right. Well, thank you for that. And I hope that we came here if you have particularly the mark of a man specifically and if you could do a third

00:17:20.510 - 00:18:11.310

one put in, uh, discipline, the glad surrender and all the parents. Let's, um, give me a break. Are you preparing for the right now? Um, or something? What alternative would be after lunch? Agree on. I'm not gonna be it. She's so excited. Um,

00:18:17.699 - 00:19:24.719

make sure that you don't, you don't, you don't have an electoral, do you? Correct, I think. Yeah. What about this as well? Oh, that's going, you, my God, you gotta have your daughter this Yeah, to make sure that that's working, I think. And

00:19:25.780 - 00:20:05.050

it for me, a book, a little red book, a little red book, I will do what I like not being there. And that is we got that idea and perhaps to think about this is an opportunity for us to so that you the situation. Thank you

00:20:06.780 - 00:20:44.640

as a woman. Um You know, in some of these early, someone said to me, I just background that you came from the institutional church as in all cases of missionaries can't be given stages of la. So what sort of frustration one coming through? What sort of

00:20:44.900 - 00:21:15.680

frustration? Um testing, I hope good. All right. You want me to all good? Well, um your early career and mission and uh times that you can remember that were difficult and you, you say you uh didn't feel restrained in any way because you're a woman as

00:21:15.689 - 00:21:38.209

a missionary. Um would, would you say therefore that the mission field was, was an ideal place for women to use the good. Yes, I would. I think I could see that it was an ideal place for me to use mine. I, I don't, I wasn't particularly

00:21:38.219 - 00:21:56.060

concerned about using my gifts. I have gifts that I didn't know I had. At that point. Of course, I hadn't thought of writing or speaking. I simply put myself at God's disposal and he said, well, here I am, do anything you want with me. And what

00:21:56.069 - 00:22:13.010

I did, I assumed was what he wanted me to do. When my husband was killed, I found myself in a rather difficult position because I happened to be both of us were Plymouth brethren who are very strong about women not taking the place of authority or

00:22:13.020 - 00:22:31.520

teaching in the church. And I was stuck with a brand new church of baptized believers. And there were no men at all left to teach because the three men who spoke the language had all been killed at the same time. So I was in a position

00:22:31.530 - 00:22:46.650

which didn't seem ideal to me in having to be the teacher. And yet I never did take a position of authority in the church. I started out by teaching the young men who were just beginning to come up and learn to preach that it was, it

00:22:46.660 - 00:23:02.310

was their job, it was not mine to run the church. So I feel that the Lord showed me ways in which my gifts could be used without overstepping the limitations set down as a query in scripture. Could I just pick you up on the fact that

00:23:02.319 - 00:23:24.579

you didn't ever exercise authority? How would you define the exercise of liberty? The scripture is clear that man was made to be the initiator and woman was made to be the responder. And in the New Testament, man stands in the place of Christ in both the

00:23:24.589 - 00:23:41.189

church and the home. This is why a woman may not usurp that authority because she stands in the place of a church. In other words, there is a drama being enacted in the church and the home, which represents the deepest mystery that we know anything about.

00:23:41.510 - 00:23:57.849

What would you say? Therefore, that the woman cannot represent crime. That's right. That's right. She cannot, she, she may, she may represent the people to God, but she may not represent God to the people in the same sense in which the man does. The scripture says

00:23:57.859 - 00:24:10.430

the husband is the head of the wife, not he ought to be or he should try to be, but he is as Christ is head of the church. And so whatever gifts that God has given to women, and there's no question in my mind that he's

00:24:10.439 - 00:24:32.540

given women gifts and we are responsible to use them. They must be used within the framework that has been set down, which means under the authority first of Christ, then of her husband and certainly of the church in which she is a member. Your achievements as

00:24:32.550 - 00:24:47.640

the author of all these books and international speaker and missionary and so on, indicate that you are a very strong person and most of the years that you were a ministering in these ways, you were single. If you had been married, would you, can you imagine

00:24:47.650 - 00:25:04.000

that this might have been different? Oh, yes, certainly can imagine. I can't imagine that I would have started writing if it hadn't been for my husband's death. There are a lot of highly specialized circumstances in my life and to try to imagine how it would have

00:25:04.010 - 00:25:27.199

been, otherwise it really difficult exercise. But then you have had such an opportunity to your leadership that you may not have. And I accept that as part of the sovereignty of God, he knows what he's doing. Well, the married woman therefore is totally limited uh by

00:25:27.209 - 00:25:45.660

her humanity to, to be a helper to her husband. I think this is the model that um comes through in the book that may be a woman, which means that um the woman finds her relevance and significance through the man and provided it's God's will for

00:25:45.670 - 00:25:59.469

her to marry. If she's a married woman, then there's no question that she will find fulfillment in being both the wife and mother. But I, I don't ever want to be understood as saying that a woman cannot be fulfilled unless she is married or unless she

00:25:59.479 - 00:26:14.959

is a mother because clearly God has a place for single women. I do believe that every woman created was created to be a mother. I don't mean that necessarily in a physical sense, but because we are born with the standard equipment in a physical sense, it's

00:26:14.969 - 00:26:34.439

an indication of a spiritual reality. And I believe that every woman is created to be a mother in the spiritual sense that is we are born to be receivers bearers, carriers, nurturers and to be available to meet human needs. But for a large percentage of a,

00:26:34.469 - 00:26:58.109

a woman would not be concerned with that. Um Perhaps so 25% of below may be concerned with bearing Children and bringing them up. So there's a large proportion of life for women, even married women to find. And it is there that the spiritual motherhood comes into

00:26:58.119 - 00:27:13.439

play because the scripture points out that when a woman has finished rearing her own Children, then she is to be responsible in the spiritual sense for the church. She used to be washing the feet of the saints, showing hospitality, being the head of the home. In

00:27:13.449 - 00:27:28.750

the sense of being the hostess. There are I have a list of about 17 or 18 things that I have called from the New Testament, which are commands directly to women and every one of them is of the nature of motherhood. That's why I believe that

00:27:28.760 - 00:27:47.579

women are really created to be mothers and I don't hesitate to say this to single women. I think that in a very special sense they are given the privilege of being spiritual mothers because they don't have the physical Children to completely tie their feet. They are

00:27:47.589 - 00:28:12.790

available to do. Yeah. Yes. And, um, what would you say then to Paul's, um, fill our helpers who will and we were, did have home churches and did teach, they were exercising. Exactly. The kids have been talking about they were spiritual mothers in the church. And

00:28:12.800 - 00:28:29.380

I think um people who think that Paul was a male chauvinist have certainly not read Paul very carefully because nobody was more gracious in his, in his appreciation of what women have done for him. And of course, it was Paul who laid down the rules which

00:28:29.390 - 00:28:55.180

set the limitations and it was also Paul who acknowledged the gifts that women were given and allowed them to pray and to prophesy publicly. Um Can I just ask the question about the origins of femininity and masculinity and the difference uh in which you point out

00:28:55.260 - 00:29:15.880

the being so significant in Genesis 126 where God made man in his image and he gave them the mean, asked them to some duty, earth bless them. This mandate was given to men and women. Do you agree? Yes. And how do you interpret that working out

00:29:15.900 - 00:29:42.400

in the church? Is it necessarily mm six role difference of male leadership? Yes. I think it is necessarily a distinction in functions because of the fact that clearly from the second, from the second chapter of Genesis, uh there was the difference between the initiator and the

00:29:42.410 - 00:29:57.729

responder. It says that the woman was made for the man, not the man for the woman and she was made for him. Eve was made for Adam. She was made from him in a literal sense, made out of his bone. She was brought to him. Adam

00:29:57.739 - 00:30:11.959

was not brought to Eve. Eve was brought to Adam and she was named by him which in the Old Testament signified the acceptance of responsibility. So it's the complementarity such as we have in a dance. One must be willing to be the leader and the other

00:30:11.969 - 00:30:28.790

has to be the follower. Otherwise it's not gonna be a dance. And we have this marvelous harmony of rule and submission, leading and following caring for and being cared for all the way through scriptures. And in the New Testament, of course, we have the definition of

00:30:28.800 - 00:30:45.060

it in Ephesians where Paul clearly shows that one is the head, one is to be subject in both the church and the home. And the reason for that is not competence. It has nothing to do with competition, it has nothing to do with competence. It is

00:30:45.069 - 00:31:12.540

because we um the way you define headship in a hierarchical or manner of the rank of a man being superior or not. But in the sense of a higher position um has been questioned by some who said in the Greek word head, the interpretation of source.

00:31:13.050 - 00:31:31.780

And in which case, the analogy of Christ, that God is the head of Christ, God is the source of Christ, the price of the head of man and man is a source of woman in the terms of just said in Genesis as we have it in

00:31:31.790 - 00:31:52.819

our um in this notion of source. There, there isn't the same notion of rank. And would you agree with? I would say that it's a, it's an unwarranted limiting of the Greek word. It does of course mean source, but that's not all it means. And there

00:31:52.829 - 00:32:14.609

are a number of passages about the head of Christ which indicate that his because he is the source, he bears authority. I can't even the words right now. But to me, it's, it's really, it's unfair to limit the idea of a man's head over to source.

00:32:15.000 - 00:32:35.219

That's part of it. That's not by any means. Important part. I think he said the path of interest was the basic, was authority. Um the authority of the, of the man and the woman. Would you say that decision making was most important in that authority when

00:32:35.229 - 00:32:52.209

I use the word authority? I'm I'm really referring there to the person who has the final responsibility. God Christ is head of the church because he takes the final responsibility. He is the initiator. He is the ruler, the one who calls the bride to himself lays

00:32:52.219 - 00:33:10.060

down his life for her perfection and freedom and takes the final responsibility. And that's what authority means as for decision making. Um for example, in a, in a marriage, it seems to me that if a woman is going to be a help meet for her husband,

00:33:10.069 - 00:33:33.130

she must contribute a lot. One plus zero doesn't make two, it takes one plus one. And so, uh I've often been misunderstood and misquoted with having said that a woman is supposed to be, become a zero. The decision making process is generally in a Christian marriage

00:33:33.140 - 00:33:51.810

certainly ought to be uh a mutual thing. But in the, in the final analysis, if there is disagreement between two people, somebody has to make the final decision. The buck stops with my husband. To me, that's a very liberating truth. I'm relieved not to be the

00:33:51.819 - 00:34:23.280

one who has to answer finally. Mm. Right. Would you say that um, women may, women may hide behind this and not exercise the, their God given responsibility to be the person that God wants him to be. If their husband perhaps is not exercising God given responsibility

00:34:23.399 - 00:34:40.169

in the sense that Christ would. Yes. Yes, I certainly would say that we are miserable offenders and we have sinned in not accepting the position that God has given us and we have sinned in not accepting the position that God has given them. And that's why

00:34:40.179 - 00:34:56.849

we're in a mess. And so all we can do as Christians is to continually go back to these basic principles, which are so clearly delineated in scripture and ask the Lord to help us fill that place when women work up on submission as uh just becoming

00:34:56.858 - 00:35:18.939

an absolute zero. That is disobedience, we are given work to do, we are given place, we are given responsibilities, we're giving gifts and it is in our acceptance, our glad acceptance of our femininity and our obedience within the terms of that femininity that we will find

00:35:18.949 - 00:35:49.209

true freedom and fulfillment. Thank. Could we stop a minute? Um You are seen as a representative of the conservative position for Christian women in the church. Are you happy to be a spokeswoman for the conservatives who are teaching on womanhood? Is, is there anything in the

00:35:49.219 - 00:36:05.870

feminist movement that you do identify with? Well, a very superficial matter of people pay for equal work, which seems to be all a lot of women are thinking about. And if they think that that is feminism, then they call themselves feminists and they are not really

00:36:05.879 - 00:36:26.120

aware of what the radical feminists intend to do with that. Um I don't really think that it's particularly important because not very many women do equal work. But if they do find I've made a decision myself or I certainly be doing equal, I expect to be

00:36:26.199 - 00:36:50.199

paid the same way. Uh the only other thing that I can think of is perhaps and the positive that I can say about feminism is that it has raised our consciousness, it has forced us to rethink the responsibilities of men. And as I said earlier, we

00:36:50.209 - 00:37:09.310

have been disobedient. The church has fallen down on the job of encouraging men to be heads in the sense that Christ is head of the church. They have not clearly defined that. And men have sort of assumed that it means Bossism and Ty. And the church

00:37:09.320 - 00:37:30.659

is not clearly taught what submission means. The submission issue is most wonderfully seeing, I think the relationship of Christ and his father. When Christ submitted to the father, it is not an admission of inferior worth. It was a glad and voluntary thing, which is my mom.

00:37:30.800 - 00:37:52.000

What, what I am to do as a wife is to submit gladly and voluntarily because my husband holds an office which he did not earn, it was assigned. And I honor him as my husband because I know that Christ had placed him. Do you see yourself

00:37:52.010 - 00:38:10.479

having any role in helping men understand their, their problems? Do you see their power, their head shape their rank? And is there any place for similar mission to men to help them understand their role? Well, I certainly hope that I have helped some men to understand

00:38:10.489 - 00:38:19.250

their role. A number of men have told me that through reading my book, let me be a woman. They learned more about what needs to be a man than any other book they had read. But of course, it takes a tough man to go around with

00:38:19.260 - 00:38:33.840

a book like that under his arm as if it's playing round rapper on it. So because of those comments, I decided I better write a book for the man which I had written the mark of a man. I think I socked it to them pretty strongly

00:38:33.850 - 00:38:59.770

in that. What masculinity really means. Uh Do men vary in their expectations of, of their role or the whole concept of a power base male? Yes, a great deal of the variation is out of ignorance and misunderstanding. I don't suppose any man has ever really loved

00:38:59.780 - 00:39:15.449

his life as Christ loved the church. It's a very high quality. It's a very severe command. If Paul was tough on women, he was far tougher on women. It's hard to love your life as Christ like the church than it is to submit to your husband

00:39:18.060 - 00:39:42.729

and looking at the feminist movement in the same way as we can stereotype feminists. For example, women who want to wear the pants. There's also been temptation to present the conservative body in a stereotyped way. Your model. I see as one submission for women. Um How

00:39:42.739 - 00:40:03.760

do you see people misinterpreting your mind? What are your critics have? Some, I've been accused of contradicting everything I say by what I do when I get up and speak to a mixed audience, for example, in the church, they say you are taking a position of

00:40:03.770 - 00:40:22.209

authority and you've told us that we cannot take a position of authority. One accusation another is that I don't believe in the use of women's gifts. I cannot imagine how anybody could read anything I write. Look at anything I do or listen to anything I say

00:40:22.709 - 00:40:41.949

and believe that I don't believe in use of all as gifts. I certainly do. There is always this problem, a misunderstanding of what submission means and what it means. Is there anything about this stereotype, this model of submission that they're not happy with and that perhaps

00:40:41.959 - 00:41:02.449

others that you're associated with, that you may not agree with. Um Recently we've had Phyla Shay out here and Maribel Morgan's hook total woman has had massive sales here. What do you see yourself in agreement with him? Teaching as far as I know, I would agree

00:41:02.459 - 00:41:22.669

with everything that Phyllis Schlafly stands for and I admire her tremendously. I have no doctrinal disagreement with Marabel Morgan. People have often um put Maribel Morgan on one side and the radical feminist on the other and say that you're one or the other, which are you,

00:41:22.679 - 00:41:37.889

are you on Virginia Mullin Cotts side or are you on Maribel Morgan side to say, well, if I have to choose between the two, I'm on Maribel Morgan's side because doctrinally, I believe we are we come from exactly the same premise. However, my only disagreements with

00:41:37.899 - 00:41:56.919

Maribel Morgan would be matters of taste. I believe in women turning their husbands on, but I don't want to hear how she does it and she's not gonna hear how I do it. I think you're gonna have to cut it off. And Chris rear, uh, we

00:41:56.929 - 00:42:21.340

finished when, at the point of looking at the, um, extremism of the feminist movement, which have been not the liberation movement. Uh The Christian feminist base is about women and men being an image of God and equally representatives of God in Christ and the church, meaning

00:42:21.350 - 00:42:46.209

to reflect this, say that they are a spiritual movement parallel to the abolition of slavery movement. Um isn't a lot of what it means to be a helper uh imprisoned by our own culture and nature since the fall. How do you see the role of helper

00:42:46.219 - 00:43:16.219

in creation? Oh, I see the role of helper in creation. Obviously, God saw a need in Adam because that was the first thing that he said was not good, something in his creative activity that was not good and that was that the man should be alone.

00:43:16.389 - 00:43:35.350

And so he created the woman to be his helper. And I'm sure that that must cover a very broad range of things in God's mind. Some of them are very obvious, it seems to be every human being needs a home and women are created to need

00:43:35.360 - 00:43:53.750

to make a home. The man is created to be the provider of the home and to protect the home and want to make it what it is. She was responded to him in every way, I think physically, emotionally and spiritually it to be available to meet

00:43:53.760 - 00:44:19.649

his needs, whatever they need be. Um This model of authority and submission seems to break down in reality for a lot of people, It doesn't always square with reality. For instance, 50% of Australian women are over 50 live as singles, either through divorce and widowhood or

00:44:19.659 - 00:44:41.729

single lives. So circumstances lead them to have to take responsibility to have no one to help and to have no helper. And uh the model that you give of authority doesn't seem to often square to this reality. Um I was interested in your own life even

00:44:41.739 - 00:44:58.300

of going into the Amazon with your baby daughter, accepting what a man could probably not have done in uh being accepted by the people that it was a God given opportunity. And I think Christ's strength was made perfect in weakness in you there. So, in your

00:44:58.310 - 00:45:17.929

own life, ha have you found that sometimes that the, the model that you have doesn't square with the way things work out? Certainly, I have not had a husband to submit to or an authority over me at home for most of my life. I've been married

00:45:18.379 - 00:45:36.709

less than 14 years altogether. So most of my life, I have been single. Um I would like to use the expression that it doesn't square because uh the order that God created I think is, is a perfect order. What we have to accept is the fact

00:45:36.719 - 00:45:51.340

that we live and fallen in a broken world. And it was certainly not God's design that women would be single, but there would be such a thing as a single woman. I think that was not part of the original plan. Uh Women are single because of

00:45:51.350 - 00:46:13.570

the entrance of sin to the world and death by sin. There is uh not only death, but there's divorce and there's homosexuality and a whole lot of other things that and the cause of women to be single. Um The model still remains true and a woman

00:46:13.580 - 00:46:28.560

who doesn't have a husband at home to submit to or ahead in the form of a husband is still treated as a woman in the church, at least she should be. That's, that's the model. That's the ideal um where she has a place to submit and

00:46:28.570 - 00:46:45.560

to be accepted as a woman. And the things that I was talking about earlier, the spiritual motherhood principle applies just as much, if not in a sense, more to the single woman in marriage. Uh Do you see a weakness that a lot of missionary initiative is

00:46:45.570 - 00:47:06.110

taken by women in the absence of men? For instance, the vast number of missions in bible college and hospitals that were founded and run by women and taken over subsequently by men. Um It's this awakeness. Yes. I think it's a weakness. There is no question that

00:47:06.120 - 00:47:28.870

God has used women throughout missionary history to do things which I think men should have been doing. I think the statistics when I was a missionary were, there were 16 single women, every single man. And I think that's a terrible record. But strength, strength is made

00:47:28.879 - 00:47:44.179

perfect and weakness. I think that there are times when women have done what they should not have done, they've gone too far. They've stepped over the bounds. Usually with the excuse that they have to do it because the men won't. And that is very often an

00:47:44.189 - 00:47:57.060

excuse that's used in churches in my country. Women are doing things that they don't really want to do or don't feel that they should be doing. But if they don't do them, nobody will do them. My reply to that is if, uh if nobody does and

00:47:57.070 - 00:48:13.129

that's, that's the men's responsibility and it's God's responsibility isn't as though the woman's disobedience is going to help the men's. I think if there were more women who would simply say no, I will not do that. That's not my place. Uh They, they might be surprised

00:48:13.159 - 00:48:33.409

at how many wake up to their responsibilities. Men are only too prone to sit back and let women do what they should have been doing. Is, is it not consist inconsistent of the church to allow women leadership and teaching and uh very strong positions on the

00:48:33.419 - 00:49:02.010

mission field proclaiming the gospel, uh which they are not in the same um capacity to do at home. You know, just and you make the point that male dominance is universal and therefore inherent in male makeup um in our society, a universal domination. When in Genesis

00:49:02.020 - 00:49:25.610

316, God says to you, man shall rule over you. Isn't this a description of a result of the fall? I don't really know Hebrew. So I'm not sure what that word rule there means God, I think is describing what is going to what will be the

00:49:25.620 - 00:49:44.149

pattern from then on. But I, I don't think that there was any contradiction with God's original design. I think the fact that he created Adam first and Eve for him and from him and Adam named her is indicative that Adam had a position of responsibility. Um

00:49:44.159 - 00:50:07.580

Maybe the word rule means more against 316, which we intended. But I, I do see the created design as being one of superior, inferior position. And I don't mean by that superior and inferior work. It's a matter of order just as there was a hi hierarchy

00:50:07.739 - 00:50:25.760

in all the creation of God at the top. And then Cherubim and Seraphim and archangels and angels and men and animals. That's very clear in scripture that there is a hierarchical order and the same thing changes among human beings. Um Well, if this is a description

00:50:25.810 - 00:50:48.860

as a result of the fall, are we not as um Christians seeking to live in the kingdom of God here now? Although not complete because it's not a complete kingdom of God yet. But we, we work towards that and towards being transformed. Therefore, the prescription of

00:50:49.439 - 00:51:10.290

rule is one that we should be not um under because we are working towards our sinless towards being relating in a way that is not under the curse. I think Ephesians five answers that question that this is the ideal way in which the kingdom of God

00:51:10.300 - 00:51:31.250

is to operate on earth where the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is head of the church. That's a very different thing from f tyranny or inner form, human rule, which is different from the way Christ was in the church. The husband is

00:51:31.260 - 00:51:48.010

the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church. And that is the ideal. That's the perfect pattern as we are obedient to those positions that God has assigned. We will be the institution of King of God on earth. And it, it's an

00:51:48.020 - 00:52:06.419

order that is eternal, the submission of Christ to the Father is eternal. It's not, it was not only limited to his earthly life and the submission of the whole pattern of rule and submission as one which obtains in heaven. Clearly, the angels are subject to God.

00:52:06.429 - 00:52:24.530

And Christ is always the subject of the Father and the Holy Spirit, all his witnesses to the son. So there is a hierarchical order which is eternal. So you see a hierarchy in Trinity, do you think that in our society, there is a tendency towards misogyny

00:52:24.850 - 00:52:47.780

um woman hiding from the past, for instance, in Australia, property rights uh for women have only been with us in, in the last generation inheritance laws and so on. There's a current need for women's refugees, refugees, for many people answered by uh government. Um Christians don't

00:52:47.929 - 00:53:09.209

participate in many of these, these fields. But uh if there is a general society, uh misogyny in attitude towards women, where do you think this comes from? I wouldn't see it as misogyny. The fact that women didn't have property rights in the Old Testament would certainly

00:53:09.219 - 00:53:32.570

not be misogyny. This was the law that God gave to Moses and it was based on the patriarchal system, which was God's intention. All human society should be based on. So, uh well, I suppose that the fact that women are weaker uh in uh physical strength,

00:53:33.209 - 00:53:51.969

that there is a need for protection by law uh because of the simple nature of man and the fact that man does dominate. Um Do you think our laws reflect the need for this? And should the church do more in these areas to do our laws

00:53:51.979 - 00:54:14.939

reflect the need for women to be contained here. Well, uh, it's currently being debated, actually an anti discrimination bill which is coming into parliament third sitting, which is very topical at the moment. And Chris's debate whether, whether we should, uh, you know, the point about the

00:54:14.949 - 00:54:34.929

whole issue is that women feel that they are on that the, uh, the losing level, they really need help because men hold all the aces, the power, the decision and we were able to uh protect women. It's a very tricky business though because as soon as

00:54:34.939 - 00:54:56.070

women insist upon their rights, then they lose a lot of privileges. Every privilege is every right has its privileges and its limitations and to insist upon equal rights, which is what women in America were doing is an extremely dangerous thing because have equal rights, equal property

00:54:56.080 - 00:55:29.239

rights. When you do things eventually means that they're going to be equally responsible for English man for. Well, what sort of leadership models in society would you see for women? For instance, we have Prime Minister to, should question women participate in that sort of activity, encourage

00:55:29.250 - 00:55:47.610

women to take leadership roles in society. I know I'm skating on thin ice when I get into this because the Bible does not speak clearly to women, women's position outside the home. All we do know from scripture is that there's certainly nothing wrong with women working

00:55:47.620 - 00:56:05.199

and necessary work. Lydia was apparently a businessman, but I try to stick to what the Bible does say very clearly, which is that women are to be subject in the church and in the home. Because of my understanding of the Creative Order, I personally would not

00:56:05.770 - 00:56:23.939

care to be in high position of political authority or even in an organization. I happen to have been the only female member of several boards and institutions technically on an equal with the other members of the board who would men. But if they had been so

00:56:23.949 - 00:56:37.669

foolish, she was asked you to be chairman of the board, I I would have declined and all I'm speaking of now is personal preference. I can't insist upon this because I, the Bible does not make that clear. So I would prefer to say, not, not to

00:56:37.679 - 00:56:58.110

say more than the Bible does. I think it puts a strain on everybody. I, I think society would be lot happier if the men were in the positions of authority, if the women were willing to be responders. But uh on, I guess this world we're not,

00:56:58.120 - 00:57:20.169

we're never going to see. Um Well, what leadership models do you see for women, for instance, in mission? Do you see them in the educational field, medical field or theological leadership? Um representatives on boards as you just mentioned or decide they have, they have contributions. Um

00:57:20.179 - 00:57:38.590

I don't know why women need positions of leadership. Why shouldn't we be the responders? And yet, of course, uh in a measure, a woman every every human being has influence on somebody. We are, we are leaders, a woman, a mother is a leader in the family

00:57:38.600 - 00:57:54.510

in a sense, but it's not the same as the, as a father at all. And neither do I see the woman in society as having a, a role which would be competitive with men. That's the thing that bothers me when you're taking positions, which I think

00:57:54.520 - 00:58:08.889

we would all be happier as men took. I would, I don't want to see a woman president in the United States. I want to have a man in that position. And I think that's true of most women. But um do you think it's a personal preference

00:58:08.899 - 00:58:25.350

and the fact that we haven't uh in our culture been used to uh women representing? No, I really don't. There's a very fascinating book called The Inevitability of Patriarchy by a man named Steven Goldberg. And he writes from a purely non-religious standpoint, but he shows that

00:58:25.360 - 00:58:42.090

there has never been a society in which the positions of power were given to women. Not one has ever been discovered, there have been some legendary matriarchy and there have been some uh societies where the uh where it was a macro macro lineal passing on to

00:58:42.139 - 00:58:59.219

many people, mothers probably was. But uh I think that it's the way things are. It's the way God created things women have. Women are so much closer to the center of things by being mothers and life givers that they don't need all the rest of it.

00:58:59.229 - 00:59:15.340

There's a sense in which because the men are banned from that central mystery of Life. They, they've got to do all the rest of it. They've got to be the generals and the painters and the president. Fine, let them have it because they'll never know what,

00:59:15.350 - 00:59:36.000

what we know. You sound as if the women are the strongest after all. Well, the women have a tremendous position of privilege in a sense I would say much higher than the man's being mothers and the mother of Jesus was blessed and I blessed among women

00:59:36.010 - 00:59:55.459

but most highly exalted of all human beings. Hm. Well, uh thank you very much. We need to fight though for a, a world that, that doesn't have the curse rule of, of man. You can fight for a rule of equal, not well working together. We need

00:59:55.479 - 01:00:15.780

each other leader and follower. The dance is the best analogy that I know of. It's the world. It's supposed to be a dance which each one frees the other by his willingness to take part, the leader frees the other to follow and follow that frees the

01:00:15.790 - 01:00:31.780

leader to lead. So you would want to encourage everybody to use what gifts they have to be limited by their circumstances, whatever and say that God has given the gift to every one of us in the United Students and for the building up providing not for

01:00:31.790 - 01:00:38.770

competition. What you doing, Har Har? Thank you.