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Tony Payne: How would you feel if I suggested that the nature of the Christian life was the formation of virtue, and that the role of a pastor was to do his part to help form the virtue or the moral character of his congregation? Would you be shocked if I said something like that—or puzzled or suspicious, perhaps? Or maybe just confused because you don't know what I mean by the word "virtue"? Well, today on the CCL podcast, we're thinking about what virtue and morality have to do with the Christian life, with our church life and with the gospel of Jesus Christ.

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Well, hello again. Welcome to another episode of the Centre for Christian Living podcast. I'm Tony Payne and it's great to welcome you again. Here we are at Moore College, recording this week's conversation.

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And sitting opposite me is an old friend. Well, he's not that old, but he's a good—has been a good friend for some time—and whose job I took here at Moore College. Chase Kuhn: welcome back to the Centre for Christian Living! Chase Kuhn: Thanks, Tony.

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It's great to be back. And I think I took your job. And you took my job. So.

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Tony Payne: We've been swapping jobs back and forward for some years. Chase Kuhn: That's right. It's been a good partnership along the way. Tony Payne: It—it has.

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And regular listeners will remember your voice and your many interviews and episodes of this very podcast. So now that you've been gone from Moore College for a couple of years—you've been the pastor, senior minister, at a church here in Sydney for a couple of years—I really wanted to get you back to talk about—I guess talk about the intersection between what you taught here for many years—ethics, moral theology, the connection between what we believe and how we live and who we are—and that I now teach in your stead. I want to talk about the connection of that to the parish ministry that you're now doing and the life of our churches.

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Chase Kuhn: That sounds great! Tony Payne: Because, and let me start by bowling this one up to you, to what extent do you think that your role as a gospel minister is the virtue formation of your parish? Chase Kuhn: I definitely think that's my role. Tony Payne: Now, that might shock some people.

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Chase Kuhn: Yeah, absolutely. Tony Payne: Why would it shock some people? Chase Kuhn: We were laughing as we just walked and got our coffees on the way here. Tony Payne: We have some nice coffees.

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If you hear some slurping noises, it's 'cause we have some very nice Newtown coffee that we're enjoying with this conversation. Chase Kuhn: And we're sorry, but not sorry. That's very good. We were talking about how I used to teach ethics here at Moore College.

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You teach ethics now. And putting that before our students—that our ministry is about people's moral formation. And I remember putting this to a classroom, saying, "Do you believe the gospel is about morality?" and students baulking at the idea. "Oh no, that's terrible! Why would you ever say that?"

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And I think what happens is we have a knee jerk reaction as Christians—that what we're saying is it's about moralism: that I will be accepted by God because of my moral performance. Definitely not saying that! Definitely not. What I believe discipleship is about is I think, in the words you've used in the past—and I could be wrong and correct me if I am—it's about learning Christ.

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And as we learn Christ, what we're often praying is that I would be more like Jesus. And who is Jesus if not, in many respects, our moral example? I mean, he is morally perfect. We celebrate that he is sinless.

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We celebrate that he lived in perfect obedience to his Father. And I think what higher thing could we aspire to as Christians than to be more like Jesus our Lord? Tony Payne: Indeed. And in that passage you mentioned, which is in Ephesians 4, "Is that how you learned Christ?" says Paul to the Ephesians, and he's saying—he's referring to a manner of living.

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Chase Kuhn: Yes. Tony Payne: "Is behaving like the Gentiles like you used to be—is that how you learned Christ?" And he then goes on to do this marvellous thing where he says, "In Christ, you put on a whole new person, a whole new mind, a whole new everything. It's got to do with becoming a whole new person in Christ." Chase Kuhn: Yeah.

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Tony Payne: Putting on a new man, a new self, a new humanity. And that then plays out in all the kind of ways you now live. You don't talk falsely anymore; you speak the truth. You don't steal anymore; you work honestly and generously with your hands.

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He spells it out into all kinds of ways we live that spring from the great change that's been brought in us from outside by Christ, by Jesus, by grace, through his mercy, by faith—all that stuff. Chase Kuhn: Amen. Tony Payne: But virtue is not a word we often use. What do we mean when we say virtue?

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Chase Kuhn: Yeah. The way that I've tried to say it is "moral excellence". I think it's the kind of character formation, to put it in layman's terms—we're thinking about the kind of character that we're trying to live out. And so, we often think about it, I think, in just everyday life as that kind of internal formation that amounts to the outward living.

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And so, we're hoping to be having our hearts changed, if you will, so that we live differently as people. How do you teach it in class? You probably have a more sophisticated way than I've just said it. Tony Payne: No, that sounds pretty good!

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Chase Kuhn: I'm out of practice. Tony Payne: Like virtue: it normally refers to a disposition, doesn't it? An inward disposition of character towards certain things. So that you would say that someone who has learned the virtue of, say, gentleness is disposed to be gentle, and that displays itself in actually being gentle and gentle actions.

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Or same for patience or peace or love, or— Chase Kuhn: Self-control. Tony Payne: Or self-control. Chase Kuhn: Yeah.

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Tony Payne: And so, there's this back and forth relationship between who we're becoming and what we're doing, so that, in one sense, we act out of who we are becoming. We do loving things, because we've learned love and we've started to be changed internally to love. But also, what we do then kind of also forms habitually who we are. So—

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Chase Kuhn: Yeah. Tony Payne: How do I know I'm a patient person? Or how do you know I'm a patient person? If you see me act patiently.

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And as I act patiently over time, I become a more patient person. It becomes more part of who I am. Chase Kuhn: Yeah. Tony Payne: So it's connected with what we do.

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But it's not entirely driven by what we do. There's a change inside us that's part of what we now do. Chase Kuhn: Yeah, and it's really important too. I mean, sometimes when people hear us talking about virtue formation or we say the gospel is about morality, when people are afraid of moralism, they often are thinking about that long list of do's and don'ts.

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Tony Payne: Yes. Chase Kuhn: So you may not tell a lie. But the problem with that is that you can seek to try to perform well in certain circumstances: "I won't lie." But you could still be a liar. Even if I'm not telling a lie in this instance, I might still be a liar.

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I might still be deceptive. I might still be having something else internally. And so, what we're hoping for is that radical transformation of the self into the newness of life that is given to us in Christ by God's Spirit. Tony Payne: And that leads to practice, and that is reinforced and grown also by practice.

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Chase Kuhn: Absolutely. Tony Payne: I mean, the traditional language that we put around this in our churches is discipleship or becoming a disciple of Jesus or being a disciple of Jesus. And interestingly, disciple, of course—the word means "learner", doesn't it? To learn Christ.

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To learn him and follow him, or to learn him by following him or something like that. So I guess what I want to ask is how is that inner transformation born and grown? How is virtue formed? We've hinted at it.

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But as you think of it now as a senior minister, and you've got a congregation that you want to see grow to be like Jesus, I don't want to sound mechanical about this—to say, "What are the different parts of that process?", as if it's all very mechanical. But what are the parts of the process? What goes into forming someone's virtue? Chase Kuhn: Yeah.

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It starts with the work of God. So we really believe that we are saved by grace. And as God's Spirit brings us newness of life and changes our hearts—softens it to the word, softens our hearts to the word, that is—even gives us, as we read in something like Ezekiel, you know, the "heart of flesh". And even as God writes his law on our hearts, as he promises to do, God's Spirit is the one that is really initiating and leading us into that kind of transformation into the likeness of Jesus.

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He is applying—the Spirit is applying—what Christ has achieved to us. I often say it like this to people: I say, "How does what Jesus did on the cross impact you now, where you are? You're living far away from that. You're living thousands of years away from that.

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How does it reach you?" And the answer is "By the Spirit". The Spirit applies what Jesus did to you and I. And so, I think it begins with God's Spirit. But I believe that the Spirit works in a very particular way to bring transformation in our lives, and I think the clearest place to go for understanding this is in Romans 12. And I love these verses.

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There are obviously other places we could turn to, but Romans 12 says that "I appeal to you, therefore, brothers and sisters, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship" or your reasonable worship there. And then this is the challenge here: "Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing, you may discern what is the will of God: what is good and acceptable and perfect." So we talk about this. We used to be somewhere else: we were the old self.

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We were trapped in our sin. We've been set free, given new life by God's Spirit, and that is for the purpose of change. It's for transformation. And so, what we don't want to do is what we used to be: conformed to the world.

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It's like we're a mould of the world. We become wrapped around the shape of the world, if you will. It's making its imprint upon us. Now instead, we're being transformed instead of conformed, and that happens by the renewal of our minds.

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And I think if you look through the Book of Romans, what's happening here is that we had darkened our understanding, if you will, in sin. But now, as we have newness of life, that that—that removes that darkness, if you will. Our minds are transformed by the power of the Spirit, and we can lean into God's word now, appreciating what God wants for us. And again, just hear what it says in that verse: "discerning what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect".

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We now can understand—discern—what God wants for us as he tells us what's good for us in this world. Tony Payne: Yeah, that's where you go. I would go there. It's one of the verses I often talk about in class, because it shows that the renewal and the newness that comes in Christ by the mercy of God is a renewal of the way we think about everything—so that we

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no longer think about everything in the way the world does, but we think about everything in a new way. And that new way of thinking is given to us through the word: the word of God, the Bible, the Scripture. It explains everything to us. It explains the world to us.

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It explains us to us. It explains God. It reconfigures how we understand everything around us. It's not just a word of salvation to tell us about Jesus and what he's done.

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It's centrally that. But it also reveals ourselves to us and reveals the moral shape of the world, if I can put it that way. Chase Kuhn: Absolutely. Tony Payne: I think when you talk about the law being written on our hearts, I think that's what it's talking about.

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We come through faith in this whole new mind to understand things differently and realise, "Hang on: no, that's wrong. I shouldn't do that". Or "Oh, I see something really good here that I should pursue and love and grasp and act upon that I never saw before." Chase Kuhn: Yeah, definitely. Tony Payne: It was there.

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It was always there. It's just I was too blind to see it. And now I see what's really good in the world. So it's like it connects us back into the reality of what things really are like.

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It's almost like a reverse Matrix thing: like, you know how you take the red pill and suddenly your eyes are opened and you see what the world is really like— Chase Kuhn: Yep. Tony Payne: —In the matrix. Well, that's the case.

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Except, rather than being born into a world that is a dystopian hell, we wake up and see that the world, sure, is a fallen, suffering place. But it's a place full of God's goodness that we grasp and live out. That's what, in a sense, what virtue is. It's understanding and grasping how good God's goodness is.

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Chase Kuhn: Yeah. Tony Payne: And living that and longing for it. Loving it. Grasping it.

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Chase Kuhn: I would almost go far as to say it's aligning our being to goodness. Tony Payne: Yeah. I like that. Chase Kuhn: I think—

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Tony Payne: "Aligning our being to goodness." Chase Kuhn: Aligning our being to goodness. So the kind of person I want to become is one that is perfectly—that is, fully—aligned to goodness. And we confess, first and foremost, by the way, that God is good.

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So we believe that God is good. And so, we're actually saying, "I want my life aligned to God." And everything that spills out from God as he creates and he orders the world, those things are good. He has made it good. And so now, if I am aligning myself to those things, if I'm discerning what is the will of God—what is good and perfect and pleasing to him—and I'm giving approval to that, I'm aligning myself to goodness.

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And I think that that's the virtuous life. Tony Payne: Yeah, that's wonderful. Because God created everything and saw it was very good. The goodness of God is woven into the good things that are around us: the goodness of other people, the goodness of loving another person and seeing them come to know God, and so on.

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Chase Kuhn: Yeah. Tony Payne: Now, as you've approached this task, in a sense, we've been talking about what moral formation is and kind of how it happens, and you've come to be the minister of a church. So out of the classroom and into the laboratory? I don't know.

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Into the—at the coalface, whatever metaphor you want to put to it. How have you started to think about what it means for you as a senior minister and for the church that you're pastoring and leading? Oh let me put it this way: what part does the church as a community play in this virtue formation? I'll ask you that first and then I'll say, "How have you thought about that and how can you lead the church in doing that?" But what part does the church play in this?

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Chase Kuhn: Yeah, there's probably multiple strands to my answer. The short form of it is that I believe that the church is the school of morality. I actually think that we are morally formed in that community. And that comes first and foremost through the clear and faithful proclamation of the Word—that we have the Word front and centre in what we're doing and letting that shape us.

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We are giving ourselves over in obedience to that authority. And I can commend your book, Tony: Let the Word Dwell Richly? It's a great new resource for us to have about how that ministry takes its shape in and amongst the congregation. And dare I say, my guess is that your argument in the book is, and I confess I haven't read this edition of the book, that actually as we let the word dwell richly, we are morally transformed together—that we are growing up into Christ—learning Christ together.

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Tony Payne: Yeah, absolutely: that through the preached Word and the one-another Word working richly together, that's how God builds people and changes people. It's how he builds his community. As his bride—as the body that grows itself—as every part and ligament does its work. And the one-another Word has this kind of—uh, and you've got me off on my subject now, so I'll only divert on this briefly.

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But going to your question, the one-another Word is really interesting, because frequently in the New Testament and Ephesians, in particular, but in other places, it's both a virtue in itself. That is, the more the word of God bubbles out of us to other people in love, the more we are actually growing like Jesus. It's a mark of the mature Christian to speak to other people for their benefit and to have the word of Christ on our lips in whatever form it might have for your sake, because I want to see you grow. 'Cause I love you and want to see you become more like Jesus, I'll encourage you.

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I'll remind you, I'll instruct you. I'll teach you if I can. I'll maybe admonish you if I need to. I'll speak in a way that helps you.

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And that's a mark of my growing in love and virtue that I want to do that and I'm able to do that. And at the same time, it's the means by which you grow and you flourish and change and become more like Jesus. Chase Kuhn: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, there are two words that I'm hearing here that I think are really good at summarising what you've just said, I think, and that is "truth" and "love".

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And both of those are very closely aligned to a virtuous life, right? We want to be people that are in truth and aligned to truth and speaking truth. And we want to be people that are loving and therefore demonstrating love. And so, the way that we do that in the community is by speaking words of truth with love, which is what Ephesians 4 is talking about.

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And that is actually the mechanism of our mutual growth or what we call "edification". That is how we grow up into Christ together. Some of the things that I think are also crucial to this in the community is that when we dig deep into God's word and when we understand God's word as a whole, we see the gospel right at the centre. Jesus is our focal point.

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And what we are met with as we begin our life in grace is we realise that actually our whole life of transformation is carried forward by God's grace And so, the gospel has to be right at the heart of our Christian fellowship. And that actually is liberating for people in ways they may not understand. But it allows us, in one sense, the freedom of failure. Failure's not good, morally.

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It's bad. It's sin. But actually, when we realise that our life is not a moral competition, but actually an exercise where we are, together, trying to root out sin—we are, together, trying to grow up, realising that has an impact on one another. The gospel helps us do that well.

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Because if I'm afraid of sharing with you, Tony, about my battle with pride or something. I'm going to mask that. And I'm going to hold that close. Because if we're not in gospel fellowship, you might use that as leverage against me somehow to get a one up on me.

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But when we see that we are here together in Christ, that's it. Full stop. That's who we are. Now I can be really honest with you about my pride, because there is no leverage over me.

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All I have is Jesus. And so, I could be very honest with you. And you in return don't have to look for angles over me of one-upmanship or whatever, but actually can speak the word of the gospel back to me—that sweet balm that helps to encourage me, even rebuke me gently, lead me back into the way of truth. It's great!

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When you contrast the old way of life with the new way of life in Scripture as well, I just want to come back to Romans for a second. Romans 1: it talks about how people didn't see it fit to acknowledge God. And therefore, God gave them up to a debased mind— Tony Payne: Yeah.

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Chase Kuhn: —To do what ought not to be done. And I've highlighted this other places before, but it goes on to explain what that looks like. "They were filled with all manner of unrighteousness." Evil. And notice the social dynamics here: covetousness, malice.

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They're full of envy, murder, even hatred there. Strife, deceit, maliciousness. Goes on to make them gossips, slanders, haters of God, et cetera, et cetera. I mean, it goes on for a long list.

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That's all because God gave them up to a debased mind. They wanted to reject the truth. They stood against the truth. And the encouragement is that when we get that transformation that comes spiritually to us, again, back to Romans 12, we're not conformed to the world.

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Now we're transformed by the renewal of our minds. And we can discern what's the will of God. And the wonderful things that then spill out for us later on in Romans 12 are loving one another with brotherly affection; outdoing one another and showing honour; not being slothful in zeal, but being fervent in spirit; serving the Lord; rejoicing together; weeping together; living in harmony; not being haughty, but associating with the lowly.

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It goes on and on. Again, social dynamics that transform a community, but that's because of the gospel. When the word dwells richly, the word of Christ dwells richly. Boy, it transforms the way we relate to each other, and we can be morally transformed in that space.

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Tony Payne: So in a sense, are you saying that the way the church, practically speaking, participates in and grows and are partners with one another in this transformation is by the Word being in the centre, and it's by finding all sorts of opportunities to share that with one another, to be honest with one another as justified sinners who have no basis for pride, and so can open up and talk with each other? What does it mean kind of for the life of the church—for the way the church acts and the kinds of things we do together? Chase Kuhn: Yeah, I mean, again, that's an involved question with many different facets, I suspect.

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But what I hope for and pray for amongst our people at our church is that there will be vulnerability—that we will be very honest about where we are, and we will be together, seeking to move forward in faith. Our goal is the upward call of Christ. We want to keep going up into him, our head. And so, none of us has arrived there.

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None of us has reached peak maturity. I am a minister who's been a Christian for 35 years and I have certainly not arrived. And so, together, there is a mutual encouragement unto Christ. So Christ is where we begin.

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Christ is where we will end. Christ is all we have from start to finish. And so, as disciples, we are literally learning Christ. That's what we're after.

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Karen Beilharz: We know that the gospel of Jesus is transformative: it transforms our minds, hearts and lives. But how does it transform our daily work? This has been a disturbing question for many Christians. We often struggle to connect the realities of the workplace with the reality of Christ, who stands at the centre of our lives.

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Simon Flinders and Paul Grimmond have just published a book on precisely this question, and on Wednesday 28th October, 2026, they will be recording a live episode of the Centre for Christian Living podcast with Director Tony Payne. Please note: this event was postponed in July due to unforeseen circumstances. Join us at Moore College on Wednesday 28th October for a lively event of input and conversation about this important topic. You can find out more and register on the Centre for Christian Living website: that's ccl.moore.edu.au.

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That's ccl.moore.edu.au. Tony Payne: And now, let's get back to our program. I have to say that in lots of little ways, in small ways and large ways, that approach to the nature of what it means to become more like Christ and our place with each other in that and a place of vulnerability, it has really come out in the time I've been at St Matthias. I've been back there now to where it all began for me: it was my church when I first came to Sydney more than 40 years ago, and here I am, back again, with you as a senior minister there.

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And it certainly feels like that's part of the culture you're trying to build. Can I ask you, one of the things I've noticed is that you quite intentionally, after 12 or 18 months or so in the role, you quite intentionally shifted some of the structures of our life together as a community and started a thing that you called a "discipleship academy". Chase Kuhn: Yeah. Tony Payne: Which I want you to talk about why you did that.

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And it's not as if, "Oh, churches: you should all go and do it—what Chase has done". But why did you do that? And what was that seeking to achieve? And how does that fit into what you're saying?

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Chase Kuhn: Yeah, thank you. A number of goals we were trying to achieve, and I'll try to make it as concrete and helpful, maybe, to a wider audience as possible, and this probably will answer some of the questions you've already asked me that I've maybe been a bit too abstract about. But as I thought about the people that I have to care for—where they are—I'm thinking about how do I best do what Paul says he's doing in Colossians 1:28-29? And that is, "in teaching and warning everyone, seek to present everyone mature in Christ", and doing that with all the energy that God gives me—all his strength.

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How, as a pastor, as a shepherd of souls, can I see people growing up into Christ? And some of the people that I shepherd are very mature, very wonderful Christians. How do I love them and help them? And it seemed to me that one of the most efficient ways was to have a program of teaching about what the Christian life is, but enmeshed within that program of teaching, always trying to model that it's not just about information, but it's about our transformation.

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So I want clear information that's true. But I want people engaging it in a way that is opening up the chest cavity, if you will— Tony Payne: Yeah. Chase Kuhn: —and helping them to be vulnerable so that the gospel can continue to work wherever they're at in the Christian life.

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One of the things that I think we've done well in our circles is really help people in their heads. But the hardest move is what one of my preaching lecturers used to say to me in America: the longest and hardest move is that short distance from the head to the heart, right? How do you get something to go from the brain down into the heart muscles? And that's a hard work.

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And so, we've been working to explore how we hear truth, can digest truth, but then interact with truth in a way that actually speaks freely and openly in the gospel to see that truth meet us where we are and help us keep going forward. And that's been a learning curve for us. It's been something we've been working very hard at and praying for. And I think we still have a long way to go.

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But have been very encouraged by. Tony Payne: It's interesting to me that you've, in a sense, tried to carve out some space within the overall life of the church to explicitly address those questions—still with the word of God, but to do so, in a sense, systematically—to do so about these questions or these topics or these issues of life. Chase Kuhn: Yeah.

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Tony Payne: And those issues of life do come up as we expound the Scriptures week by week, week by week, in church—that the normal diet of our sermons should be, in a sense, expository. It should be just keeping on opening up the word as God gives it to us and seeing how it shapes and teaches us. But you've managed to find a space where you can also focus and teach about—and teach the synthetic kind of "What does it mean for our lives? What does it mean for our thinking in this area, in this area, in this area?" Which is something that's harder to do week by week on a Sunday. It's something that takes some time.

00:26:44.730 - 00:26:56.140

And you've found a space to do that. I'm wondering how you thought about that and how you found that space in church life, 'cause we're all very busy and it's hard to fit things in. Chase Kuhn: Yeah, thank you. First and foremost, I am an expositor at my heart.

00:26:56.320 - 00:27:03.250

Tony Payne: Yeah. Chase Kuhn: I love— Tony Payne: I know. Chase Kuhn: —Preaching straight through the text, and I've championed that for a long time as our bread and butter.

00:27:04.210 - 00:27:40.450

But I'm also a theologian, and I've realised, I think, in consideration pastorally of where people are, how I can help give a framework for their ongoing, continual growth in the Christian life? And so again, it was trying to think about how do I capture as many people as I can where they're at and help them to grasp hold of core doctrines almost, if you will, as categories that can be filled in as we're reading through the Scriptures? So they're biblical categories, in my mind. They're helping us to grab hold of what I think the Scriptures are telling us about the Christian life.

00:27:41.110 - 00:27:58.860

But something that we needed to do in kind of one broad sweep to give the framework that we can keep growing in as a church. And this is partly thinking about how we can do something that's replicable. We want it to be able to be something that lays a foundation for people year on year. It's also something that we want to be able to be exported.

00:27:58.860 - 00:28:16.190

We want our people—many of whom will be moving all over the world—that where our church is at, that happens. How do we give them resources that they can take with them, and understanding, first and foremost, of themselves of the Christian life? But then how can they best go and make disciples elsewhere? And I'll just give you the basic frame very quickly.

00:28:16.460 - 00:28:42.710

We started with the call to discipleship, and then we essentially said that the gospel transforms our relationships, and it transforms our relationship to God, to ourselves, to one another and to the world. And so those are four categories that I preached under. How does the gospel—how does following Jesus reframe our relationship to God? How does it reframe our relationship to ourselves, to one another—that is, within the Christian community—and then to the world at large?

00:28:43.280 - 00:29:09.010

And to me, that was an exploration of the Christian life as a whole. Tony Payne: Yeah. Chase Kuhn: And trying to, within that, help people to understand more of their own identity as a follower of Jesus, and some of the moral responsibility that I think is asked of us as followers of Jesus. Tony Payne: And practically speaking, I guess what you've done, and this is interesting to me, you've decided to run this as a kind of stream of our church life alongside the small group stream.

00:29:09.370 - 00:29:24.190

So that for many churches, there's Sundays and there's small groups, and that's kind of it, in a sense. Those are the two main structures we operate in in ministry. But you've kind of brought this in as a midweek stream. We don't have adult Sunday school like we do in America, more's the pity.

00:29:24.190 - 00:29:38.120

That's not something we just do, and where we could maybe do that on a Sunday. It's just not part of our culture or way of doing things. But you've found a way to interweave it with and connect it in with the small group life of the church. And so, it doesn't feel like there's this whole extra thing we have to do.

00:29:38.210 - 00:29:41.720

It feels achievable. Chase Kuhn: Yeah. Tony Payne: Which I think was very cleverly done. Chase Kuhn: Well, thank you.

00:29:41.720 - 00:30:02.360

I mean, it was a bit of a risk. We realised it's disruptive. So what we did was we decided we weren't going to be running our usual small group Bible studies for the first half of this year. And what we put on instead were as many offerings as we could, reasonably, as a team, to meet when people would have otherwise met in their small groups.

00:30:02.390 - 00:30:25.860

So we ran a midweek morning, a midweek evening and a weekend evening to try to make our academy sessions as accessible as possible. And that was costly for our team to meet that many times. But it was absolutely worth it to try to capture as many folks as we could. And while we were disruptive, obviously, to the groups, we made our meetings happen in tables so that they were highly interactive and trying things.

00:30:25.890 - 00:30:40.290

But the question we were asking was how do we change a culture for the long term in one fell swoop? It's a big thing to disrupt it. So how do we do it well? And how will it then pay dividends into the future—in particular, as we relaunch our small group ministry?

00:30:40.860 - 00:31:16.910

And the main thing we did with that was, again, try to make it interactive in a different way: less around comprehension and understanding—that was certainly part of it. But also those more interactive components that try to draw people into a more vulnerable position. I'll just give you one way we did that practically: Jane Tooher, who's my assistant minister who looks after women's ministry and training, she had a really genius way of asking a question that might probe on a particular topic, but then giving people eight prefilled answers. So it gave them language that they could identify with and say.

00:31:16.910 - 00:31:42.330

So it's not just a blank space saying, "How do you feel about this?" It gave you eight ways that you might feel about it. People said, "Oh, I really think this is the one that best describes where I'm at, or I've definitely been here before." And so, it actually encouraged wider participation, because there was language on the page. And then it gave us a common language even across all the sessions. And that impacted how we interacted on Sundays, and we are listening to the word of God there, and we're feeding back, and it was a really brilliant move.

00:31:42.620 - 00:31:58.000

And we've now carried that forward into our small group Bible studies that are meeting again. So the reason why we did it as a break from our regular Bible studies was how do we get this foundation for as many people possible at once? We think it's worth doing. We think as many people getting on board is worth it.

00:31:58.000 - 00:32:16.120

So our people's lives are frantic. We can't put more on. Let's take something off for a time and then put it back on later. Tony Payne: And I presume then as people join, as people come new, you'll find ways to do a similar kind of resetting of culture and expectation and frameworks with new people as they come through.

00:32:16.190 - 00:32:47.010

Chase Kuhn: Correct. We're trying to develop materials that can be, again, reused in the future, where we're offering certain units, if you will—core seminars for our people to come through in time, yeah, as part of what we think is sort of a basic suite of materials that we would like to see our people experience with us, as long as they're with us, and build upon those things. Tony Payne: Chase, it's great to hear how you and the team are sort of thinking about it—how you're trying to implement that vision for a transformed life with the whole community—with the whole church.

00:32:47.610 - 00:33:07.280

One of the questions that some of our listeners may have: where does mission and evangelism fit into this? So it feels like you are expending a lot of energy and effort in building the virtue and character of the community that you're there to serve as their pastor. Where does this sort of outward focus of our church life and the concern for the lost—where does that fit into this vision? Chase Kuhn: Yeah.

00:33:07.410 - 00:33:18.730

I have made a strong push where we're doubling down on discipleship. I've said that. But everyone starts somewhere. And I'm aware that we have a lot of people that are sort of still in negative space.

00:33:18.730 - 00:33:35.400

They're not yet on board with Christ. And we have many, many people visiting our church every week. And I rejoice in that. And I feel like it's part of our responsibility to meet them where they are, to introduce them to Christ and to help them move forward in faith.

00:33:35.400 - 00:33:49.620

In fact, one of the lines that I use often in our church is "We want everyone to be, wherever they are, coming on board and moving forward in faith". And for some people, they don't yet have faith. They're really questioning what's life about? Who made me?

00:33:49.740 - 00:34:02.630

Is there a God? Who is this Jesus? We want to say there is a place for you here and we want to help you move forward. But I've also got people that are twice my age in the congregation that have been Christians twice as long as me.

00:34:03.200 - 00:34:27.280

And my goal is still to help them keep going forward in faith, because we don't ever arrive until glory. And so, I try to think about it as the spectrum of people that I have every single week. And so I can't ever over-program something; I have to be wise enough and willing enough to meet each person, if I can, where they are. And there's obviously some pragmatic limitations to that.

00:34:27.280 - 00:34:37.540

But how do we teach and equip people to keep going forward in faith? That's the real goal and the way that I keep things in tension. I have no idea if that's clear enough. You can edit that out.

00:34:38.080 - 00:34:58.440

Tony Payne: No, I can see how you're seeing the making of a disciple— Chase Kuhn: Yeah. Tony Payne: —or the growing of it—making and growing of a disciple—is a much larger thing than someone's become a Christian and I'm helping them grow. You're seeing it as, in a sense, a whole spectrum of people who are everywhere on this kind of line: from being far away from Christ to being very mature in Christ.

00:34:58.440 - 00:35:12.300

And you want every one of them to keep moving forward—to keep taking steps forward—to come to Christ. Chase Kuhn: Yeah. Tony Payne: And so, in that sense, it's seeing the gospel as applicable to, and as the Word that needs to be spoken to everyone who's anywhere— Chase Kuhn: Yeah.

00:35:12.300 - 00:35:30.060

Tony Payne: —on that kind of spectrum that God brings to us, that we can come to know and who we are relating with. Chase Kuhn: That's right. And I often think about discipleship, and we keep talking about moving forward in faith—I often tell our people, and this may be a mixing metaphors, I'm not sure, but I don't think that discipleship is linear. Tony Payne: Yeah.

00:35:30.090 - 00:35:53.110

Chase Kuhn: I think there's a lot of things that we learn that we have to relearn. And I think there's a lot of challenges in life that can upset or even potentially derail us. And so, part of the work of the community is to be attentive to people where they are, and then help them from where they are to keep growing up in Christ. And again, sometimes it's many steps forward, but then sometimes a few steps back.

00:35:53.650 - 00:36:15.650

And so, I don't take that for granted. We were talking over lunch earlier, Tony, but I know some traditions that have a very high bar of entry for membership: it's subscribing to the whole lot about what they believe, where they're at and the theological maturity: this is where we are. I think of it quite differently. I want everyone growing up into the most theologically mature position they can hold.

00:36:16.070 - 00:36:28.150

But I want people that still have lots of questions able to journey with me. Tony Payne: Yeah. Chase Kuhn: And I want to meet them where they are. One way I've said it to somebody recently is, "You're probably not going to agree with me on everything.

00:36:28.840 - 00:37:01.600

Your place with us here at this church is not based on your agreement with me. But I want you to understand that what I will do, hand on heart, is always aimed to teach and lead this church according to what I see in the Bible. I'm going to do it as faithfully as I can, and I want you journeying with us on that as you're thinking about and processing what you believe and hold to be true." And so, I'm telling them what position I'm holding, where I'm teaching from, and yet inviting them to come along with me on the journey as they're considering the word of Christ.

00:37:01.700 - 00:37:14.310

Tony Payne: It's funny: you're kind of reflecting some language in ways I've often thought in the past of how people come to Christ and grow in Christ. I've sometimes talked about people moving to the right—taking one step forward in faith. Chase Kuhn: Yeah. Tony Payne: That sort of stuff.

00:37:14.760 - 00:37:35.480

And I think the other thing to draw out that I think's implicit in all that you've been saying is that as that transformation takes place—especially as we become transformed in how we think about the world and those people around us—we come to a new mind and understanding of who the people who aren't Christians are around us. Chase Kuhn: Yeah. Tony Payne: And we come to understand more clearly they need Christ.

00:37:35.540 - 00:37:47.320

Chase Kuhn: Yeah. Tony Payne: And the way I've sometimes put it is that the further we go forward in faith, we kind of learn to look backwards more, and see everyone all around us who hasn't come to faith yet. And we see them afresh. And we long that they come to know Christ.

00:37:47.320 - 00:38:08.680

In other words, the growth that we would say an evangelistic heart or a loving evangelistic heart for the lost is part of that growth to become like Jesus, who came to seek and save the lost. Chase Kuhn: Yeah. Tony Payne: And so, it's not as if there's discipleship and growing like Jesus, and then as a completely separate thing, there's concern for the lost. It's a facet of growing like Jesus.

00:38:08.680 - 00:38:23.970

Chase Kuhn: Absolutely! Tony Payne: A facet of our discipleship—of our transformation. And if we aren't concerned about the lost—if we're growing a community of people who are cold about the people around them and their fate without God, well, they're not a very mature people yet. We haven't presented them very mature in Christ yet.

00:38:24.000 - 00:38:35.910

Chase Kuhn: Definitely not. Yeah, that's right. I believe that we have a corporate responsibility for reaching the lost around us. I believe that we have people coming into our doors, and we want to make sure that they're introduced to Christ as best as we can.

00:38:36.360 - 00:38:59.460

But I tell our people regularly that the best way that the lost will be reached for Christ is if you live as an ambassador for Christ— Tony Payne: Yeah. Chase Kuhn: —In your life, wherever circles you're in, whatever relationships you're in, any place you go, you are representing Christ. And so, when you begin to think about people differently—when you begin to pray for people because you know they don't know Jesus—that changes you.

00:38:59.460 - 00:39:22.770

I mean, 2 Corinthians 5 comes to mind: that this is how we view the world now differently. I think it doesn't present in us any kind of pride. It actually changes us to have a softness and a desire to see grace. Again, an anecdote, and you can use it if you want to, but somebody asked me recently, "Oh, do we believe in hell?" And I said, "We definitely believe in hell." And they said, "Well, I'm concerned about this other family member who believes

00:39:22.770 - 00:39:43.280

that we just believe that they're going to hell and that's going to put them—" I said, "Well, we teach you about hell. But that is never in a way for us to say, 'Damn you to hell!' to somebody else." Tony Payne: Yeah. Chase Kuhn: In fact, if I believe that somebody I care about is going to hell, it makes me all the more loving and all the more concerned—all the more caring for them.

00:39:43.280 - 00:40:09.060

I want them desperately to come to Christ, and I want them to desperately align their life to the goodness of Christ. So it's not a, "Yeah, here's a hard doctrine and everybody else, forget you." Those are the kinds of things that actually help us to love a world that needs Jesus. Tony Payne: I think that's a lovely spot for us to finish our conversation, Chase. There's a bunch of other things we could talk about, but I guess we've maybe been going long enough, and I've kept you long enough.

00:40:09.600 - 00:40:24.080

Thanks, brother, for coming in and talking, and for explaining so well what it means to take the ideas of the theological class about what it means to grow in virtue and become like Jesus, and what that means for a life in Christ and for a parish life in Christ. Thank you so much! Chase Kuhn: You're welcome. Thanks for having me back, Tony!

00:40:39.260 - 00:41:13.500

Tony Payne: Well, thanks for joining us on this episode of the Centre for Christian Living podcast from Moore College. For a whole lot more from the Centre for Christian Living, just head over to the CCL website—that's ccl.moore.edu.au—where you'll find a stack of resources, including every past podcast episode all the way back to 2017, videos from our live events and articles that we've published through the Centre. And while you're there on the website, we also have an opportunity for you to make a tax-deductible donation to support the ongoing work of the Centre here at Moore College.

00:41:14.100 - 00:41:33.340

We'd also love you to subscribe to the podcast and to leave a review so that people can discover our podcast and our other resources. And we always love and benefit from receiving your feedback and questions. Please get in touch: you can email us at ccl@moore.edu.au.

00:41:33.840 - 00:41:50.330

Many thanks to Karen Beilharz from the Communications Team here at Moore College for all her work in transcribing and editing and producing this podcast, to James West for the music, and to you, dear listeners, for joining us each week. Thank you for listening. I'm Tony Payne. Bye for now.