00:00:00.340 - 00:00:24.420

Careful these days. Um I'll just test the front of this. This is an interview with Reverend John Wyndham at his home in Manor Street up in Hornsby. And it's the 26th of January, 1993 8000 miles around South Australia and Western Australia with um a piece of

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soap stuck into a hole in the fuel tank of the land rover, eventually covered with a band aid and then fiberglass and that's how it was when we traded it. Yeah, that's right. And it's uh it's history. Yes. Well, I come out of a conservative evangelical

00:00:46.919 - 00:01:03.490

background. Um I grew up at Bal Gola, worshiped at All Saints Bal Gola and uh made a commitment to the Lord when I was 20. I grew up in a Christian home in the sense that my mother was a devout Christian. My father died when I

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was 18 months old. So mum was really what today would be called a sole parent. And um I uh I value uh the time at Bal Galla Cannon. Bill Deasy was rector of the parish and a very dire man preaching would never have set the world

00:01:23.440 - 00:01:40.449

on fire, but good solid biblical basis. Um, I was converted after a rugby match, but that's a, that's a whole new story. Uh, no, we used to have a, an annual rugby match against Matthews Manly to decide the premier fellowship on the north side of the

00:01:40.459 - 00:01:54.639

harbor. And we won the game and Saturday afternoon, we, we had a fellowship, uh, tea afterwards and I wouldn't have a clue what the, uh, the guy who spoke at the tea said. But um I was shattered by one of my mates getting up and giving

00:01:54.650 - 00:02:12.020

his testimony. He become a Christian only two weeks earlier. Remember sitting there saying, oh, no, not Dave. He hasn't become religious, you know, and uh I hadn't made a commitment. Yeah. And uh so another mate and I walked from Manly back to Bal Galla. And after

00:02:12.029 - 00:02:28.500

the thing, we talked about this whole deal and we actually sat on the steps of the partially completed Roman Catholic Church at Bal Gla and said, well, if this is for real, we'll give it a go. And that was, that was it. And um it wasn't

00:02:28.509 - 00:02:53.679

long after that. The Lord called me in a ministry. I went to Moore and uh I went to college in 58. Um I was catechist at Marrickville under Jim Noble, um was ordained in 61 did two curacies in Sydney um at Saint Anne's Ride and Fascinatingly,

00:02:53.690 - 00:03:09.410

Bill Deacy Cannon, Bill Deasy and Reverend Reg Langshaw, um who was rector of Ry were the, uh, only two students in their year in college. Apart from Archbishop Lane, the three of them were in college together. Yeah. And I was at Ry and then I was

00:03:09.419 - 00:03:22.669

at Saint Paul's Cleveland Street, which is now the Greek, um, Greek Cathedral. Yeah. And from there I went out with BC A and I was in, uh, I was the third man in the two missions at Ceduna and Minnipa. So that there was always somebody in

00:03:22.679 - 00:03:39.369

town when somebody was Bush. And uh then when Harry Goodhew came across to Ceduna and um Bill Warburton left uh minibar, I went down to Minnaar uh to act as locum Minnipa. Really? Uh That's what it was the Diocese of Adelaide. Then it's the diocese of

00:03:39.380 - 00:03:55.080

the loch R now. Um And then at the beginning of end of 63 Jen and I were married and uh we moved up to Tarcoola on the Trans Australia railway line because the Bush areas were being cut off the town areas. And um we took over

00:03:55.089 - 00:04:09.520

the ministry to the sheep stations and to the Trans Australia railway line. And I used to joke and say it was the only parish in the world that was 1000 miles long and 4 ft 8.5 inches wide. And uh we, no, we were there for a

00:04:09.529 - 00:04:24.200

little over two years before BC O moved us to Norseman in, in the West Australian Goldfields. Oh, yeah, I mean, I was offered, I was, we, we were invited to go to, uh, to Tur, and we were invited to go to, uh, Norseman. And in each

00:04:24.209 - 00:04:40.350

case, it seemed right. What really made it interesting was that in that period of about five years I ministered right along the Trans Australia railway line and right along the air highway, you know, and it was, I mean, it was a tough, tough existence. Um I

00:04:40.359 - 00:04:58.799

did 40 42,000 miles by road in the 1st 1st 12 months and uh it was lonely, but there was a lot of blessing and um need some energy. I had a real fight with God over that. I was going out with a girl at the time.

00:04:58.809 - 00:05:12.859

I was in college. I was in my final year in college and I have to confess, I used her as an excuse not to sort of even look at the whole thing that Lord had been challenging me. And I can remember saying, well, Lord, you know,

00:05:12.869 - 00:05:28.380

she couldn't take the heat and that was it. So the Lord Lord's way of dealing with that was to split us up and it was pretty ragged at the time. Um It really was, and uh it was very painful for both of us. Um We're still

00:05:28.390 - 00:05:46.369

good friends and uh that's good. Um But yeah, and so the Lord really, really challenged me and uh and I knew it was Right. I have no doubt at all that it, that it was right. Um, but it was an interesting time on the TRANS line.

00:05:46.380 - 00:06:01.750

And uh even as recently as 12 days ago, we were in Perth for our son's wedding and among our guests was a man who was the station master at Cook on the Trans Line at the time. And uh one who was invited, wasn't able to go

00:06:01.760 - 00:06:17.019

was the station master of Tarcoola who was converted under our ministry out there. And we still retain that uh that contact with them, you know. And then from while I was at Tarcoola, I also had a part-time army chaplaincy CMF chaplaincy that had me as chaplain

00:06:17.029 - 00:06:36.160

to Maralinga, the atomic weapons Research establishment. And when we left Norseman, I went into the regular army as a chaplain which had took me to Vietnam for a short stint. Then we came back from there to parish work in uh in North Mead about 69. And

00:06:36.170 - 00:06:52.750

we went from North Mead after three years to Milton on the South coast. And that was a very difficult time during which I made a stand on a on conscience and pastoral um issues. And we became front page news in the daily Mirror because I declined

00:06:52.760 - 00:07:08.029

to take a funeral at a particular time. And uh yeah, and I was, it was very difficult and I took a break from ministry um for about six months, at least that's how I thought it was, I was ministering part-time at Bal Gla, um, but I

00:07:08.040 - 00:07:26.910

drove buses for 15 months or so and at the end of 74 I was feeling pretty low. Um, there didn't seem to be much, um, future. I mean, there was, and there wasn't, if, you know what I mean? Um, and I went to a conference that

00:07:26.920 - 00:07:45.079

was organized by the Sydney Minister's Charismatic Fellowship and that was at Vision Valley with Juan Carlos Ortiz. Yeah. Ok. Yeah. Well, it was with Juan Carlos or TDS. And there I was baptized in the spirit and within an hour was offered a, an appointment on the

00:07:45.089 - 00:08:06.279

staff at Saint John's Darlinghurst at Kings Cross. So we went there very reluctantly um with five kids. Um I was there for two years and then in um 77 I joined the staff of the Temple Trust and which was promoting Charismatic Renewal around Australia. And uh

00:08:06.290 - 00:08:24.059

I was there full time for about a year and part time for the next two years in conjunction with um acting as pastor at Saint Paul's Bellfield. And then in 1980 felt that we should uh be at Belfield full time. And I consulted to the Temple

00:08:24.070 - 00:08:40.598

Trust and taught at Vision College for a while in that period. But then out of that, the Lord opened up doors for ministry. In the Pacific 1980 I went and spoke at the National Charismatic Conference in Suva and that led to a well, the Lord actually

00:08:41.340 - 00:08:59.929

challenged me later that year in 1980 with a vision of ministry in the Pacific. And we shared it in our Christmas newsletter, Family Christmas newsletter. And that led to us establishing Pacific Renewal and outreach ministries, which was really the parish is missionary outreach because we had

00:08:59.940 - 00:09:17.369

two of the wardens of the parish were on the board. And between then and 1985 I ministered in every Pacific Island with the exception of the American Trust territories in New Caledonia, with teams took teams at times or went on my own. 1981. Shortly after the

00:09:17.380 - 00:09:32.309

vision had been given to us, I was in Singapore for the first so a conference uh sharing of ministries abroad uh which Michael Harper was organizing and that was a leaders conference in Singapore and 40 leaders from outside Asia and the rest Asian leaders. And after

00:09:32.320 - 00:09:49.099

the conference, the non Asian leaders then went in ministry to Asian countries and I was part of a commonwealth team that went to India to South India. And uh then Michael Harper asked me to think about organizing a Pacific Leaders Conference which we did in 1984

00:09:49.109 - 00:10:11.150

in Suva. And we had leaders from all over the Pacific at that. And 85 we went to England um for the SOMA consultations. And out of that 84 actually Anglican Renewal Ministries in principle agreed to the establishment of a SOMA office in Australia and um sharing

00:10:11.159 - 00:10:29.299

of ministries abroad. Yeah, it's an Anglican uh based agency which came into being after the 1978 Anglican conference on Spiritual Renewal held at Canterbury in England. And its mandate is the renewal of the Anglican church worldwide and to work with Christians of other churches in renewing

00:10:29.309 - 00:10:49.530

the church. Um and uh Michael Harper's still international executive director, there's an international executive board and there's offices in the UK Australia, Canada, uh the United States and Ireland and an office just opening in South Africa with reps in other parts of the world. But we're

00:10:49.539 - 00:11:07.380

almost into a phase of a new direction at the moment. But um yeah, so out of that, um 1986 we established the office in Australia and I became the Australian director and that became full time in 87. I'm not sure that it's full-time as far as

00:11:07.390 - 00:11:22.479

salary is concerned, but it's certainly full-time as far as the work is concerned. And sa A exists to uh as I say, provide a ministry to developing countries in particular who don't have the resources to bring visiting ministry into their country. We take teams on a

00:11:22.489 - 00:11:42.020

short-term basis, 3 to 12 people. Um A mix of young and not so young mix of clergy and lay. Uh We go to where we're invited and we conduct teaching seminars, our team members pay their own fares and the host country or diocese usually meets the

00:11:42.030 - 00:12:01.729

accommodation expenses. And since 87 there's probably been something like 100 and 50 missions mounted all all over of which 35 have come out of Australia. So it's very, very exciting and the Lord has really opened for us a door into North India. And uh yeah, well,

00:12:01.739 - 00:12:22.280

particularly for same in Australia. Um but what's happening now is we're looking more at the north south com um context and regionalization. And while we won't be limited in ministry to the Asia Pacific area from Australia, that will be the area that we will initiate ministry

00:12:22.289 - 00:12:44.049

in and we'll have regional conferences and be responsible for them. Whereas the UK is, will concentrate on that with Africa and Canada and the United States will concentrate on the Americas, but we will still have a certain amount of cross fertilization. Um And uh yeah, so

00:12:44.179 - 00:13:01.210

we've actually got two teams going out in March 1 to Rajasthan and India and one to Solomons. And then in May we take another team to uh to jammu in India have an invitation from the pastor up there who uh I encourage you to bring another

00:13:01.219 - 00:13:20.539

team to Jamu, the bombs are exploding everywhere, which is a great sense of encouragement. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But we expect to have a team in Zaire later in the year too. Yeah. All back, all the way back to 74. Um Before you, before you went to

00:13:20.549 - 00:13:39.289

this uh conference with, uh, volunteers. Um, what did you know about the cancer? Oh. Well, if you had a look at my path, Mark, you would see heel marks in the concrete where God tried to drag me in. Um, I, my wife came into, into a

00:13:39.299 - 00:13:56.239

baptism and the spirit experience in 1972 or 71. Well, she'd gone through a very difficult time. We were in the parish at North Mead and we had six families a week moving into the parish, five kids. I never seemed to have time at home was al

00:13:56.250 - 00:14:15.590

always getting called out. And Jane was pretty lonely, pretty desperate. And my aunt who's uh who at the time was an elder of the cathedral healing ministry and is still very active at the age of 87 in the healing ministry. Um was talking and Jan was

00:14:15.599 - 00:14:32.380

talking to her and uh she said, uh Jan said, she'd read this about this. And my aunt said, well, there is such a thing dear. And on the following Sunday, I was preaching, I'd been preaching through the commandments and we're up to the seventh and I

00:14:32.390 - 00:14:46.419

was preaching on the command that thou shalt not commit adultery, which basically it was a, a sermon on Christian marriage. Jan was convicted, went across homes to the, to the rectory and knelt down beside the bed and said, God, if this baptism in the spirit is

00:14:46.429 - 00:15:02.510

for real, I want it. And she got it right then and there, uh, by a sermon preached by a non charismatic and, uh, and, uh, and, and that was it. And, uh, no, she wasn't speaking in tongues then. That came a little later, perhaps three or

00:15:02.520 - 00:15:18.169

four weeks later when she was hanging out the washing and said, I want it, Lord. And he gave it to her, hanging out the washing, which remind reminded me of the, the Betty Pulkingham song. Uh hanging out the clothes, a lot of hanging out the clothes,

00:15:18.179 - 00:15:42.859

living for your glory, hanging out the clothes, you know. Yeah. Oh well, I saw changes in Jams but then the pressure came and I was, I think I moved from being couldn't care less to. This is interesting to fighting it. Um 1972 there was a number

00:15:42.869 - 00:15:56.299

of anglican clergy came into renewal. Alan Alcock was one of them and uh Alan was sharing some of the things that was happening, using illustrations of prayer points answered. And that really meant nothing to me because I'd seen God answering prayer like this even all through

00:15:56.309 - 00:16:15.390

our BC A days. So it didn't um didn't strike a chord, you know, um Greg and Judy Blackton who you may know of. They've been missionaries in South America for many years, Greg had come into a renewal experience. And um after this episode at Milton, which

00:16:15.400 - 00:16:31.710

was a pretty devastating time where I felt very rejected and uh very much out on my own. The only people God sent to us was charismatics. They were the people who came down and, and shared with us ministered to us. Yeah. Yeah. Um, and, well, now

00:16:31.719 - 00:16:51.979

I have to say that during that time, I mean, the, um, there was an attempt to starve us out and, um, oh, yeah, they did, they cut off the purse strings and the reformed church, Dutch reform Church in Canberra sent down $80 worth of groceries and

00:16:51.989 - 00:17:05.680

the Pentecostals at board under Eric Thorpe bomb Faith Center. Um They used to come down to encourage us every Sunday night after their own service. And then Eric decided I could teach, he was a pastor, so he'd bring his congregation down to us for about four

00:17:05.689 - 00:17:19.520

months and they used to come down every Sunday night I taught and uh uh and that was it. But um, it was really the mix of the Pentecostals and the reform church. Um Never the Twain shall meet, you might say and yet and yet they did.

00:17:20.050 - 00:17:37.479

And yeah, well, we s we, we, we saw God working, I mean, not that we hadn't seen him work before. And then over the six weeks after we left the parish before I got this job, driving buses. The Lord provided me with the exact equivalent financially

00:17:37.510 - 00:17:57.680

of salary and traveling allowance in that six weeks period. But it was difficult. Um And then, uh I had contacts with, with other renewed people, but not a great deal. I was still struggling with the whole issue of having made a stand on conscience and uh

00:17:58.530 - 00:18:19.520

I'd rock the boat and you don't do that in the church. Well, but it had, it had a very freeing um uh result because it set me free from structures. Um, and strictly off the record, I realized bishops could make mistakes and most of the bishops

00:18:19.530 - 00:18:36.319

I'd known from my youth upwards. And uh that was what really, what hurt more than anything else because they were friends. And um none of us liked being rejected by friends. But at the conference, the Ortis conference I had was having fellowship such as I hadn't

00:18:36.329 - 00:18:53.050

had for a long time was hearing, teaching that I hadn't heard for a long time. And I uh on the, at the end of the week, I was literally saying, Lord, what is it there? Is this great burden that I feel? And the Lord said, you

00:18:53.060 - 00:19:07.109

should never have left North Moon. And we realized that it was a mistake to leave, leave that parish when we did, it was just on the edge of, of something happening. We were into renewing structures and what would have happened after that. I don't know, but

00:19:07.119 - 00:19:22.579

we got sidetracked and uh and moved. And so I just confessed before the Lord in literal tears of repentance and sorrow that I shouldn't have left, went across to the uh the conference and I was, do you know Noel Cannon of Redeemer Baptist Church bumped into

00:19:22.589 - 00:19:37.400

Noel, who had actually said to me three weeks before we left North Mead, you shouldn't be going. And this is some 20 months later, I suppose, perhaps a bit more. And Noel said to me cos I hadn't been in the first session you see on the

00:19:37.410 - 00:19:50.160

Friday. He said, where you been? I said, oh, I'm in my room confessing before the Lord. I shouldn't have left North Moon. Noel just smiled and looked at me and said, it's taken a long time, hasn't it? Ok. Yeah. Actually it was probably more than 20

00:19:50.170 - 00:20:08.890

months if I think about it. Um, September. It was probably a little over two years. Yeah, 20 to 26 months or something like that. But, yeah, so that was it. And, oh, a brochure was in the post. Um, now I suspect that my aunt, my dear

00:20:08.900 - 00:20:25.170

charismatic aunt who grew up on the north, who lived on the North shore and was a terribly proper person. And suddenly one day in 19 71 it must be, had said to me she was very tired cos she'd spent the previous day door to door visiting

00:20:25.180 - 00:20:37.459

in Kara. And I thought, and I thought something's happened to her. No. That's right. That's right. And I think she must have put it in, in a bundle of papers from the healing ministry. And I looked at this and said, I want to go to that

00:20:37.469 - 00:20:53.709

conference and rank actually. No, it wasn't. It was, it was mentioned in something and I rang her and said, do you know who's, who, who's organizing it? And she said, oh, Greg and Judy would have brochures. So Greg was South American missionary society general secretary at

00:20:53.719 - 00:21:06.380

the time. So on the way back from the bus depot, I called in on Greg and Judy to pick up a brochure. And I look back on that in some sense of amazement because they gave me, they put the registration fee in the envelope as well.

00:21:07.290 - 00:21:16.760

And then on the Monday, I went to the owner of the bus company, which was a private company and said, I wanted the following week off without pay. And he said, I'll have to think about it. And I said, well, don't think too long because if

00:21:16.770 - 00:21:30.800

the answer is no, you can have notice. Now, I was so convinced that I should go and the next day we got an interim pay rise going back 15 weeks and that covered the salary that I was going to give up. Yeah. So yeah, that's sort

00:21:30.810 - 00:21:46.569

of where it was. And then the actual baptism in the spirit came towards the end of the morning. Uh We had a, there was a time of praise and worship. 100 pastors singing with my hands lifted up and my mouth filled with praise in them. Then

00:21:46.579 - 00:22:09.199

they burst forth into singing in the spirit and I broke and there was David Crawford um from who's now at um Saint Davids, Michael Surry Hills, Greg Blaxland, Alan Alcock, who's retired and Bernard G who was sent at ST John's Darlinghurst, they were all standing around

00:22:09.209 - 00:22:24.170

me and I remember them saying that his ministry needed here and that was it. And uh yeah. So I mean, why I have to say, I have to say as far as I'm personally concerned, my ministry, I saw results in my ministry even in the up

00:22:24.180 - 00:22:44.069

until that point of time. But there was a whole new dimension, there was a whole new sense of power and in ministry, etcetera, etcetera. Yeah. So we just go on from there, I guess he said, obviously paid for by going through a dry time and you've

00:22:44.079 - 00:23:09.670

got examples of other because physical games um for the other people you spoke to, I think. So I think it's true for everybody that there's usually a fairly dry period. Um And they're not necessarily desperate, but they're close to desperate before the, before they come into

00:23:10.369 - 00:23:30.869

a real renewal experience. Yeah. Yeah, I think so. Mhm It just, yeah. Yeah, I think so. She was my godmother or she is my godmother. She's probably prayed for me from the time I was born. Uh There's been a lot of prayer, a lot of folk

00:23:30.880 - 00:23:45.140

who knew me were praying that I would come into a renewal experience. But I can look back through the whole scene and realize that my father who died when I was 18 months old, as I've said earlier, um with a lot of the other members of

00:23:45.150 - 00:24:05.979

the Wyndham family up in the Branston area. Um Wyndham Estate wines or what's now Wyndham Estate wines? That was the property were all involved in the Catholic Apostolic Church. Ok, good. So, I mean, see, there's, there's that link as well, 1828 or the 18 fifties. My

00:24:05.989 - 00:24:35.349

father and grandfather, not too sure about my uh my great grandfather who was a pioneer. But um yeah, no, I've never spoken to Barry about that. It is, he's, he's, yeah. And all of us were involved in looking, looking for connections between the Catholic Catholic church

00:24:35.359 - 00:24:55.089

and the modern by Councilman. We, we uh the difficult time. Well, see dad died of cancer, cancer of the bladder. And uh obviously there wasn't any cure at that stage. There wasn't any sort of radiotherapy at that stage. And he was a church warden at Saint

00:24:55.099 - 00:25:11.540

Matthew's Manly. Um and Arthur Ebbs was rector of Manly at the time and he administered to dad, but he was quite happy to allow the Catholic Apostolic people to come in and pray for dad at the time. And in fact, the Darwin Restoration Association, which is

00:25:11.550 - 00:25:28.849

a group of people in conjunction with National Trust who are restoring the old homestead up at Darwood up at Frankston. Um they put out a, a quarterly journal and, uh, there was quite a bit about the family and the apostolic, uh, Catholic apostolic church in, uh,

00:25:28.859 - 00:25:48.489

not an issue. Not so very long ago. That's something which I was told. Yeah. Yeah. And actually there was a copy of their prayer book somewhere. I don't know where it is now. I think it's probably gone the way of so many of these things. But,

00:25:48.500 - 00:26:02.670

yeah, and the connection was uh was there, there's a strong Christian element running right through the family. I mean, there are, if we go down through the history of the Wyndham's back 506 100 years, there's quite a number of clergy in the whole scene. You know,

00:26:02.680 - 00:26:19.560

it's, it's, it's there. So, I mean, there's a, there's a link, a family link, not that it necessarily has to be that way, but the Catholic apostolic thing is fascinating and I just haven't had time to really research any of it, you know, but it's certainly

00:26:19.569 - 00:26:45.699

there. Um What do you know about the beginnings of in Australia? Ok. I think probably the first person to be baptized in the spirit was Barry Schofield, who's the director of Pict. Yep. Barry has been at Picton since 1955. Um And uh he's probably the only

00:26:45.709 - 00:27:07.189

man in the diocese who uh the 1966 retirement ordinance doesn't uh doesn't apply to him. Now, Barry used to have a missionary convention at Picton in March of every year. And if you can get hold of a of the church record, there must be archives somewhere

00:27:07.939 - 00:27:26.750

uh of about March or April 66. The front page said tongues spoken at Picton convention and I, we were out with BC A at the time and it was, it would, it would have been March April. And I can remember looking at this and thinking, what

00:27:26.760 - 00:27:44.290

on earth is Schofield up to now? Oh, Barry's always been a bit eccentric, bless his heart. And, uh that sort of put him beyond the pale at that stage. And, uh, I mean, I, I never followed it through. I was far enough away not to have

00:27:44.300 - 00:27:59.260

to worry about, about all this, but that would have been the, uh that would have been 66. And then in probably 1970 actually, another guy who was very early in the piece in baptism, the spirit, of course, was Jim Glennon with the fanning of the healing

00:27:59.270 - 00:28:19.670

ministry. But another guy who was baptized in the spirit very early in the piece and off the record has sort of gone back a bit. Was David White, Paul White's son. Yeah, he's up at Blackheath now, but he was one of the early guys. Um, well,

00:28:19.680 - 00:28:39.569

it's, you know, it's, it's there but doesn't take part in anything very much. Now, another early anglican who was baptized in the spirit was Peter Morrow over at Christchurch. Ok. Well, Peter was a teacher at um Blue Mountains grammar and he was baptizing the spirit. He

00:28:39.579 - 00:28:50.569

went to a Pentecostal and he was baptizing the spirit and he went off to talk to somebody about it. And I don't know who it was. He spoke to in Saint Andrews was in Saint Andrew's house. Then church house was one of the leading men in

00:28:50.579 - 00:29:09.349

the diocese. And they said, 01 of the Begbies had this experience, but he's dead now. Um That was the end of it. And so ultimately Barry became a Pentecostal, of course, heads up a very, very um big church in Christchurch. Um So, uh one of the

00:29:09.359 - 00:29:37.680

babies had this experience. I don't know who it was. I know nothing about it at all. I really don't like, well, Len May, Len May. But then, I mean, even some of the Begbie grandsons may know. Yeah. Yeah. Well, so somebody may know something. But that's,

00:29:37.689 - 00:29:53.969

I mean, that's what Peter told me that's going back in the, in, in, in the, in the late seventies. Um Another person who's had a baptism in the spirit experience and I don't know where she stands at the moment is Eleanor Knox brought Knox's system, the

00:29:53.979 - 00:30:13.589

old family's here and, but, you know, but, but, but, but Broughton is still open, Broughton has shown before he went to South Africa and he would show great interest I'd share with him what God was doing with me and the archbishop has been like this too.

00:30:13.599 - 00:30:26.209

The archbishop has been very open and of course, you know, Peter Robinson's baptized in the spirit, but the archbishop has been very open and I, he's been a great encouragement to me in this ministry. Even if he hasn't been committed to it, he's been supportive. But

00:30:26.219 - 00:30:45.219

anyhow, so you come to the seventies, the early seventies and it's just, it's a private business. Yeah. It's just happening in bits and pieces. I don't. Yeah, I, I think that's probably right. Yeah, I think that's probably right. 64. Of course, you had Michael Harper baptized

00:30:45.229 - 00:31:05.780

in the Spirit in England and the establishment of the Fountain Trust. And um at that time, I'm not sure that there was any Michael did come out to Australia but wasn't very greatly received or very well received. But in the, in 1971 72 there was a

00:31:05.790 - 00:31:22.939

move of the spirit that grew in the eastern suburbs that came out of Luray Miers Church where Alan Langstaff was the pastor. Ok. And in that group, Alan Alcock was baptized in the spirit at the time, he was rector of Saint Luke Clavey David Crawford, probably

00:31:22.949 - 00:31:38.979

Bernard Cook. Um It was just a move of the spirit. Now, I think you see, to me, I don't know whether you've ever ever looked at this, but you probably realize that it was in 1962. I think that the fir that the second humanist Manifesto was

00:31:38.989 - 00:31:58.420

published and it was in 1963 64 that the move of the spirit began in the world in the, in the, in the mainline churches. And I see a great connection here because I see the forces of darkness moving and then God moving by his spirit. Now,

00:31:58.430 - 00:32:13.170

in fact, what's happened even though 1970 well, all these guys came into a renewed experience and they, and Jim Glennon was there and they really um bore the heat and burden of the day. I came in just a couple of years later, but I was still

00:32:13.180 - 00:32:36.660

amongst those who bore the heat and burden of the day. 1973 there was um a synod, no, March 73 there was a more college conference or seminar on the Neo Pentecostal movement. And they brought together people from both sides, those who were um in renewal, those

00:32:36.670 - 00:33:00.079

who were not. And it was debated. And unfortunately, the Charismatics chose Pygmies and yeah, and the guy who was chosen sort of to debate the theology, if that was the right thing, uh was Paul Collins and he just wasn't a match for it. And at the

00:33:00.089 - 00:33:15.510

end of it, he finished what he had to say and then brought, and Knox stood up and started to ask some questions and I wasn't baptized in the spirit at the time. And I watched Broughton very skillfully get Paul into a corner and then he put

00:33:15.520 - 00:33:25.829

one question to him. And if Paul said no, he denied everything that he'd said. And if he said yes, he'd fallen into the trap. And of course he had to say yes and brought and sat down, smiled and said, thank you very much and sat down

00:33:26.699 - 00:33:38.689

and Peter Clifford who was with Sams at the time and on furlough and who's now in South Australia looked at me. He's another one who came into baptism and the spirit Peter says, oh, he's very naughty, but very clever and, and that was it. And that

00:33:38.699 - 00:33:58.089

was a setback. And then Synod appointed a commission to look into the Neo Pentecostal movement. In probably 7273 the report was made and David Crawford and Jim Glennon were on the commission and they had a minority report which was not, was not published or at least

00:33:58.270 - 00:34:17.350

s sinner wouldn't publish it. And Synod sort of rejected the whole thing out of hand. Now, that would uh that the report of that commission would be in the 19 73 or 74 yearbook. Ok. Now David Crawford in fact published the minority report under his own

00:34:17.360 - 00:34:38.310

name called baptism and the spirit and spiritual gifts. Yeah, he's at Surrey Hills. Yeah. ST Michael Surry Hills. The theological. Yeah. Yeah, it really did. And the fight was on. Now, the fight was led by John Chapman and there's reasons for this because Charles and Alison

00:34:38.399 - 00:34:59.879

Alice Wooderson had come into the experience. They were down at Fy Meadow, Surrey, Fairy Meadow. And um, there was a meeting held in 19 or around that time. And as I remember, I, I didn't get to the meeting, but as I remembered a question was asked

00:35:01.479 - 00:35:18.739

and I think, OK, I have to say, I think the way the question was and I think it was Chapo who asked the question, but don't quote me on this one. Well, it was up at, it was held at Saint John's Darlinghurst, right? Are you saying

00:35:18.750 - 00:35:35.439

that if I haven't had this experience, I'm not a Christian. And as it was reported back to me, Alice Wooderson said yes. And that was the and I don't think she understood the question and that was it mate. That was when, that's when the war started.

00:35:36.489 - 00:35:55.000

Now for me, I nailed my colors to the mast, partly when I went to ST John's Darlinghurst. But certainly when I went to work at the Temple Trust, I went in as Allen's assistant and as administrator. I nailed my colors to the mast. Um I incurred

00:35:55.010 - 00:36:09.179

the wrath of the archbishop. He was not very happy about it. But yeah, he was not very happy about it, but he realized that there was not another appointment for me at the moment in the diocese and there was no point in standing in my way

00:36:10.250 - 00:36:32.149

and uh like face to face. Yes, he very rarely puts anything in letters. Um But it was, it was face to face. But, um, I, I wouldn't, I said I wouldn't work with the temple trust unless I had an authority to officiate in the diocese because

00:36:32.159 - 00:36:52.280

that was my license to minister in the sense legally. And I eventually got it. Well, then from there I went on to work at, um, at Bellfield and it was a marriage of convenience for the diocese. But, um, it was a marvelous time because we, I,

00:36:52.290 - 00:37:07.209

I just ministered. I write from the word go. I had two years to see if Belfield would get off the ground again. And I just moved in all 4 ft and we saw great blessing. We actually used it partly as a Renewal Center because I was,

00:37:07.439 - 00:37:22.600

I was one of the coordinators of Anglican Renewal Ministry with Alan Alcock and Jim Glennon. And then when Alan retired, I took over the reins and we used to have rallies, 3, 400 people along at Bellfield. And if we had visiting speakers out or we had

00:37:22.610 - 00:37:39.379

anybody of importance coming to the country, I was usually coordinating it and amongst, I mean, we, we had some incredible people come out if you look at it, Michael Harper, uh Terry Fulham, both bishops of Singapore, former and present. Um Willie Murphy, the singer, did you

00:37:39.389 - 00:37:58.209

ever come across Willie, one of the top gospel singers? Um Bill SAB Brits. Um I mean, I just made use of them and the congregation grew. We, we realized we weren't going to have a big congregation. We became a clearing house, a training house. Well, no,

00:37:58.219 - 00:38:13.229

it's not now. And of course, the church is now the headquarters of the Korean Presbyterian church. But, um, I mean, that's the church there. Be right behind you. It was a ma see that's taken from the gallery. It was a marvelous building to, to, to have

00:38:13.239 - 00:38:35.489

anything like this in because you could minister and we had a lot of blessing out of that. And, um, oh, yeah. Yep. Yeah, the whole deal. And even now, I mean, we've been away from the parish six years, seven years. No, six years. And, uh, we

00:38:35.500 - 00:38:53.979

still have contact with the Parisians. And, um, but out of it, I mean, I look back Steve Watts who was one of my wardens is now, um, base leader with, ywm in, in, um, in Canberra and others have gone into leadership positions and we, we, we've

00:38:53.989 - 00:39:09.909

just seen, I think what I would say, some very exciting things happened in those days and it was a small enough place to be able to do. It. Had good contact with the local Pentecostal churches, the Greek Pentecostal church, the, um, Italian Pentecostal church. We, we,

00:39:09.919 - 00:39:40.500

we had great contact with all of these people. Um, so Anthony Fode, I know the name Fode. I know the f Yeah. Yeah. That's right. Yes. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. I haven't seen him for a long time. But, yeah. Yeah, that's right. So that really was um

00:39:40.659 - 00:40:00.439

sort of the way things uh moved on. Well, the Temple Trust was Alan's vision. It came out of the book of Haggai. The rebuilding of the temple was a vision for seven years. And uh the first conference was 1972 and it just broke, even, just broke

00:40:00.449 - 00:40:27.389

even. Uh And then we moved on. Um There were conferences in Melbourne 75 Adelaide and Brisbane 76 big one in Sydney. In 77 78 we had five conferences around Australia Townsville and Perth simultaneously. Then Canberra leaders, Melbourne Hobart nearly killed me. Yeah, didn't, nearly, didn't what

00:40:27.399 - 00:40:46.729

wasn't as devastating as the 79 conference because we ran for three weeks with youth conferences and ministers and wives conferences and the open conference. And we had the big meetings at the racecourse on uh in the evenings. And um in 1980 I co-ordinated this uh the

00:40:46.739 - 00:41:03.979

National Pentecostal Ministers conference when Jack Haven came out because Temple Trust had been given the responsibility for it. Some of the old Pentecostals couldn't understand why an Anglican was organizing their conference. But that was, that was another story. Um And then we brought David Watson out.

00:41:04.969 - 00:41:23.229

Um And 79 we became Vision Ministries and um then Alan went to the States. I'm one who believes it was wrong for him to go at the time that he did. But he went and of course, Vision Ministries virtually folded. A few years later it got

00:41:23.239 - 00:41:40.320

off the rails, went the wrong way and I don't say that critically Harry Westcott, but it did, it went off the rails and I'd have to say that was one of the most painful experiences I've ever had to watch something that I'd worked, work with, watched

00:41:40.330 - 00:42:13.290

something I'd built up and assisted in building up for 34 years. Just go down the tube. They go to the Prosperity Gospel and there was no outs and there was no outside covering. No, no Peter Hazer. Bye bye. Yeah. Yeah, it just went off the rails

00:42:13.399 - 00:42:39.429

and all the, all the denomination renewal bodies withdrew support. Oh, I know. I mean, it was just very sad that, that it happened. Um I mean, the Temple Trust Board was composed of inter denominational people. There were Anglicans, Roman Catholics Methodists, uh Pentecostals, Don Baker was

00:42:39.439 - 00:43:03.469

on the board. Um And then we had a very big advisory committee um around us. Uh We established Vision College. We uh that was at Randwick and then it moved to the to central station, the site they had in central station. Um I actually was administrator

00:43:03.479 - 00:43:25.909

over all of the whole show uh as well as being the director of outreach, vision outreach. And uh we attempted to uh bring the PTL club to Australia, in fact, um I think somehow, fortunately it never really took off. This is, yeah. Yeah. But um it

00:43:25.919 - 00:43:47.219

was a a tremendous time, the great right across the board. And Alan did a lot, Alan Langstaff had a lot to do with the honing down the suspicions by the Pentecostals. And uh yeah, it was a very exciting time. And for me personally, I mean, baptizing

00:43:47.229 - 00:44:00.959

the spirit in 74 sinner at the deep end at in in, in the Kings Cross region for two years. And then to be working with an organization and being in touch with the cream of Pentecostal leadership from around the world. It was very much a training

00:44:00.969 - 00:44:16.300

ground. And I mean, if I say I was ordained in 61 and then came into the same ministry in 1966. Um I look back and I say, well, look uh uh 86 at least the 1st 25 years of ministry was to prepare me for what, what's

00:44:16.310 - 00:44:38.989

happening now. Now Anglican Renewal Ministries was established in 1979. Um Resulting, no, it was a, well, it was, it came out of the Canterbury Conference in 1980 1978. The vision for it. Yeah. And Dick Wallace in Melbourne became the first director of Ural ministries. Now, it

00:44:39.000 - 00:45:00.360

was more Dick's vision and it didn't totally have the support that it should have had. Um Dick's a Dick's a teacher, not a, not an administrator and it needed an administrator, but Dick struggled and made a lot of financial sacrifices. Um there was a bit of

00:45:00.370 - 00:45:17.050

infighting in Melbourne where he was based. But right up until from then, up till 19 84 Anglican Renewal Ministries, whoever happened to be the chairman had a committee where he was so Bishop Ralph Wicks had the committee in Brisbane and Leon Cohen had it in Victoria.

00:45:17.459 - 00:45:35.389

And in 84 when Bishop Hamish Jamieson was being suggested as the director or at least as the chairman, somebody said he could and he and I went to school together, Hamish, somebody said, oh, well, Hamish could get a committee together in, in, in, in western Australia.

00:45:35.399 - 00:45:48.560

And I had a reaction to it. I have to say, I really had a reaction. I said, no, it's not gonna work. And with the new South Wales people and Tasmanians, I suppose, and a few others, we felt we needed a national body. We had a

00:45:48.570 - 00:46:11.070

meeting and we decided to have a national executive with a chairman, treasurer, secretary, um a sa a representative and uh two delegates from each ah province of the Anglican church in Australia, which really meant each state and that was 1984. And uh so we uh we

00:46:11.080 - 00:46:28.070

had our national executive, we began to meet two or three times a year in 85 at the Adelaide Conference, we reported back to the, the conference and it was decided that we would confirm it and th th those people were elected for three years and then

00:46:28.080 - 00:46:46.989

elected. Then we had, uh, it was, and it was Trennia elections. 88 91. And, uh, and that's how it's gone and really there's a sense in which armor has gone on from strength to strength in many ways, um, in what sort of, um, sort of that

00:46:47.050 - 00:47:11.149

would keep me off. None. And then get back to eventually. Sure. I don't think stuff again, get some in the background. But, um, how, what's your feeling for, how it progresses through that time in terms of uh acceptance and got it. There's probably been a greater

00:47:11.159 - 00:47:28.989

acceptance within Anglo Catholic circles, let me say first up Anglican wise, most of the men in this diocese and the diocese of Sydney who came into renewal were all men who had either been outside the diocese on missionary service or who would come into the diocese.

00:47:30.709 - 00:47:57.520

Now, that's not totally so, but by and large, that's, that's where it is. And that's a very interesting observation I would make that they got away and had their vision broadened, right? OK. OK. Oh, yes. Yeah. Now I have to say also that other dioceses are

00:47:57.530 - 00:48:16.729

too, but the reason that I see the Anglo Catholics as embracing renewal far more easily than the um consider evangelical is that the Anglo Catholic expression of the faith is, is very experiential. It's experienced in the, in the sacrament of the Lord's Supper. I mean, it's,

00:48:16.739 - 00:48:40.239

it's sacramental and therefore it's experienced uh whereas those of us who grew up in a conservative evangelical background, um, don't base our faith on experience, we base it on the word of God, but you can't separate your faith from your experience and you've got to have

00:48:40.250 - 00:49:01.610

the two interpretation of. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, yeah, I mean, ii, I look at the Bible as the, as the infallible word of God written by men but inspired by the Holy Spirit. Um And I have to say that my faith is based on the

00:49:01.620 - 00:49:16.030

word of God. Um I mean, early in the piece, I grew up, as I say in a parish where it was taught, the just shall live by faith. Um And the assurance of salvation based on the word of God was taught. And that's my heritage and

00:49:16.040 - 00:49:34.209

background. But I can't deny the experiences that I followed through my conversion was an experience. And uh my baptism of the spirit was another experience. And it's a bit like, well, look, you know, you can say what you like, but you can't take away the experience.

00:49:38.129 - 00:49:51.909

I don't have a lot to do with WW with the whole scene at the moment. I've sat down, I sat down and talked with Philip Jensen probably 10 years ago, perhaps a bit later, 88, 10 years ago, I remember sitting down with Philip at a conference

00:49:52.669 - 00:50:11.600

and sharing the experience and Philip listening and that was as far as it went, oh, it wasn't, things weren't as hard, but no, I mean, that was all, I mean, I, nevertheless, despite the fact, I mean, if I go back at that period, the younger men

00:50:11.610 - 00:50:31.179

in the diocese don't know who I am. Right. The older men in the middle, in between, they know who I am. Um, and, uh, guys like Chapo, I mean, a chap on our greatest of mates. We don't sort of see a lot of each other. Now.

00:50:32.159 - 00:50:42.850

We sat in a and this is off the record too. We sat in a, in a retirement planning seminar last year and we happened to be sitting next to each other and I think it took half an hour before we managed to start talking to each

00:50:42.860 - 00:51:00.780

other. But, but um I still have good relationships with the, with the bishops. I think I do. I mean, Harry Goodhew and I are great mates. I've had a good relationship with the archbishop John Reid and I, despite perhaps differences of opinion in this area, um

00:51:01.770 - 00:51:16.300

um we still get on well together, Peter Watson and I were in college together. I think you've got to go back 1972 when Alan Alcock was baptized in the spirit, the, the men who came into baptism in the spirit at that stage, they were perhaps a

00:51:16.310 - 00:51:29.209

little unwise. That's not to say that I was wise, but they were perhaps a little unwise. They went in boots and all and and, and bang, this was it. And they didn't listen to anybody. And uh, John Reid was actually worshiping Clavelle at the time. He

00:51:29.219 - 00:51:47.979

took his family out of the church and Alan still feels that even now in retirement, he feels that uh there was a rejection because he was converted under the Johns Ministry at Gladesville. Um, but, uh, I mean, it's the enthusiasm, isn't it? Of Ooo, of something

00:51:47.989 - 00:52:08.280

new and, and, and you're not altogether wise with that enthusiasm. Oh, I think use of phrases and, um, if you haven't had this experience then it wasn't exactly said like that. But the impression was you were a second class Christian and, and you haven't had what

00:52:08.290 - 00:52:31.000

I've got, there was an arrogance and, uh, yeah, I, I see that as being there. Got you. Mhm. I think the church has learned to accommodate Charismatic Renewal. They know it's here to stay. I mean, whereas in 1906 through to 1910 they got kicked, everybody got

00:52:31.010 - 00:53:03.669

kicked out the Charismatic movement of the, of the sixties to eighties, uh, the church has attempted to accommodate us. Um, why do I think that is? Um, so that, yeah. Yeah. Well, there were, but I think we've learned perhaps to, um, at least accept that other

00:53:03.679 - 00:53:19.780

people are different to us. And, uh, I mean, there are people who will still fight us. I understand a sermon was preached. It survives last week or the week before denying that God act supernaturally today and how anybody can say that. I don't know. I mean,

00:53:19.790 - 00:53:31.610

iii, I joked with a couple of our board members. I rang up, rang some of them up during the week. I said I have irrefutable evidence that there is a God in heaven. And, you know, one of them said to me. Oh, yes. I said, yeah,

00:53:31.620 - 00:53:43.889

I dialed a telephone number and I spoke to the bishop of Rajasthan in India on, on, on Tuesday. I mean, having tried to get letters back and having tried to phone him for two days, this happened. You see, and we laughed and we could joke about

00:53:43.899 - 00:53:57.510

that, particularly those who'd been to India. You see. Yeah, I mean, this was it. And then on Friday, I get this free ticket. Now don't tell me that God doesn't act supernaturally. You see, I mean, apart from the healings that you were you experience and you

00:53:57.520 - 00:54:18.469

see, and you're involved in. So, yeah, but I think the church fought it and this is true right around the world. But then sought to accommodate it and say, ok, well, this is just another branch. Now, the archbishop said to me in July, you charismatics amaze

00:54:18.479 - 00:54:37.159

me. He said you have crossed churchman and Dyomin national barriers that nobody else has ever been able to cross. And yeah, I think that's where it's at. Now. I see a lot of men who've come into a baptism and the spirit experience who have not moved

00:54:37.169 - 00:54:55.419

on. They have not led their congregations because of fear because of um pressure from within the congregation. And so they become closet charismatics. And I think we've got on the arm a Sydney mailing list. I think we've got about 100 clergy on that list, but I

00:54:55.429 - 00:55:15.340

would say that only 20 of them are really actively involved in trying to bring their churches into renewal. Yeah, in some, some cases, one man, I won't mention names but one man has been in his parish three perhaps four years now. And this year or last

00:55:15.350 - 00:55:28.810

year for the first time, he has a non hostile parish council. Now, I was fortunate that I didn't have that when we went to Belfield, I had a parish that was so happy to be able. Well, no, that's not true. I had one church warden who

00:55:28.820 - 00:55:45.209

fought me for 12 months and then he reti resigned and then bit by bit, we built up and then we started to operate on the, the concept that we don't move forward until we're all in agreement. Sometimes took us six months. But uh but that's, yeah.

00:55:47.100 - 00:56:05.550

And then I think the way the Lord opened up that Pacific Ministry for us meant that the parish had a whole new direction. Oh, yeah. Yeah, it really was. And that was very exciting to see people who came from what we can call a working class

00:56:05.560 - 00:56:21.530

background. Now, I'm not putting that in the snobbish angle, but that's the, that's the area that they came from. They were artisans, train drivers. Um And to see those people starting to grasp of world vision was perhaps one of the most exciting things that I've seen.

00:56:23.209 - 00:56:46.709

How, what numerically or spiritually numerically. We never moved above 55. Yes, two congregations of 23 and 25. Then we had one congregation of 5560. I mean, sometimes it got up to 70 but basically, it was 55. We saw in 9, 9.5 years, nine and three quarter

00:56:46.719 - 00:57:03.760

years, virtually three congregations. We had a core group who'd lived in Belfield all their lives and that was it. We had others who moved in cheap accommodation, building up deposits to buy so they could buy a house and then they moved out. And so in the

00:57:03.770 - 00:57:19.909

space of that 9.5 years, we, we really had 33 congregations. But with a, with a, with a solid core group, the exciting thing was to see the 8070 to 80 year olds come to Christ and come into baptism in the spirit. That was very exciting. Spiritually.

00:57:20.090 - 00:57:41.409

We saw a congregation where the per capita giving actually rose between 19. Well, not from the beginning, I can't, I can't speak from the beginning. That was 70 into 77. But between 1983 and 87 we saw the per capita giving. And that included kids in the

00:57:41.419 - 00:57:58.250

congregation. Overall. We saw it rise from $11 to $23 per head. I think of one lady who's probably 70. Now saying to me in 1986 I've been waiting for you to preach that sermon for eight years. That was on tongues. And I smiled and said, Beryl,

00:57:58.260 - 00:58:11.969

I have preached that sermon or preached on that subject twice before in the last eight years. And she says, I couldn't have been listening now, isn't the, isn't it? And that was the thing. And it was the spiritual growth. Now, when we left the parish, our

00:58:11.979 - 00:58:25.610

last Sunday in the parish was the last Sunday of services. Um because the congregation didn't want to be a branch church, the parish was being amalgamated with Campsie and most of them went across to Campsie parish. 12 months later, the rector of Campsie rang me and

00:58:25.620 - 00:58:48.429

said, I want you to know there's been a takeover. Your leadership is now the leadership of this parish. No, it's been squashed. Although the people themselves, the individuals themselves are still pretty much on fire for the law. The Yeah. Well, there's the armor rallies that we

00:58:48.439 - 00:59:18.850

have and they can go to things like the Wimba conferences and Liberty and, and some of some have perhaps uh drifted out of being totally sort of on um for renewal, but they're still on fire for the law things. And uh ok, can I quote the

00:59:18.860 - 00:59:36.040

bishop of Mala in S in, in the Solomon iss samer has been for us, God's x-ray. The whole diocese has been x-rayed to the very roots of its cultural foundation and its religious practices. The word of God has come alive. Our worship can be enjoyed and

00:59:36.050 - 00:59:54.409

we must never go back to where we were. For me particularly and for us, it brought our worship alive so much so that when we had two services at Bellfield, it eventually became one. Um We moved, our service was moved to an hour and a quarter,

00:59:54.419 - 01:00:11.030

perhaps an hour and a half, then an hour and three quarters, then two hours, then two and a quarter hours, 2.5. And our Sunday morning service probably ran for 2.5 hours most time. And the people who were the longest and loudest in their complaints when we

01:00:11.040 - 01:00:23.520

went over an hour and a half were the ones who were always there at the end because at 2.5 hour service, we'd go to morning tea in the church hall and we often didn't leave the place till one o'clock having started at nine in the morning.

01:00:23.659 - 01:00:41.290

And, and I think that was it. Our, our worship actually has come alive as a result of renewal. And I did major on worship. I mean, iiiii I sent, I sought to major on worship and develop our worship, praise and worship become a very real part.

01:00:41.709 - 01:00:59.439

And we used to begin with a time of praise and worship for about half an hour. Um And we did not move into the liturgy, the actual liturgy, the prayer book service until we sensed that the congregation was ready to move in. Now, sometimes I would

01:00:59.449 - 01:01:18.300

sense it. Sometimes my lay reader would sense it. Sometimes the music group would sense it and we had eyeball to eyeball contact. We, we, we knew where we were at and uh I could look across at the music leadership and they would just say, make some

01:01:18.310 - 01:01:38.709

sort of a sign. And I think, oh, yeah, they're right. And we would then move into the prayer book itself. And I use Betty Pulkingham, Graham Pulkingham s wife's phrase music is the bicycle on which the liturgy rides. And the actual prayer book service is a

01:01:38.719 - 01:01:51.219

skeleton which we clothe and music is what we play it with. And that's why our services went for 2.5 hours. I mean, I'd finish preaching and the music group might say to me, we think there should be a time of praise and I'd say, right, go

01:01:51.229 - 01:02:15.100

for it or I would say and, and we, we learnt not to be worried about the clock, even though there was a clock hanging from the gallery which the church wards at one stage said they were going to replace with a calendar. Uh What has been

01:02:24.340 - 01:02:46.110

um ok. Um Have you noticed a change in the sorts of things you preach about and the content. Well, the Sunday after I was baptizing the spirit, Robert Forsyth was cats at balow and Robert sat under my ministry 33 Sundays a month for about eight months.

01:02:46.739 - 01:03:03.030

And I just shared what God had done up at um Vision Valley and continued on to preach. And Rob, I can remember Rob coming to me and saying, man, something's happened to you. I've been blessed in these last eight months with the teaching. But wow. And

01:03:03.040 - 01:03:26.310

I think, yeah, my preaching took on a whole new dimension. Um Yeah. Yeah. And Rob and I can still talk. I mean, Rob went to one of the Wimba conferences. I agree that this was fantastic. You see, there's a danger that our theology will bind us.

01:03:27.580 - 01:03:45.239

Yeah. For some bleach and throats sometimes. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it does and, and, and, and experience and theology sometimes come into, into tension but um our theology can bind us. But I look back now, I don't reject any of my i in a sense. I

01:03:45.250 - 01:03:59.830

mean, we didn't uh pentecostalism wasn't a problem when I was in college. We never even looked at it. Nah, fifties, sixties, we never looked at it in the early sixties. Um Well, it just wasn't a problem. So you, you, you don't worry about things that are

01:03:59.840 - 01:04:21.679

not problems. But um I've had to unlearn a few things I suppose. Um where I was told in college that uh apostles and prophets died out in the, the first century. And I accepted that. I mean, I had no reason not to accept that. I would

01:04:21.689 - 01:04:35.219

say looking back now, I think that I should have said, well, if that's the case, why didn't the evangelist pastors and teachers die out as well? Because the verse that the scripture says he gave some to be for the equipping of the saints for the work

01:04:35.229 - 01:04:56.260

of ministry until we all obtain maturity and unity of the faith. Well, we ain't there yet. So, so that's it. And so the question should have been, well, why that didn't occur? Because you just accepted it because you didn't know any apostles and prophets straight. No,

01:04:56.270 - 01:05:16.429

because I think if you go back to the Charismatic revival of the 18th century, whoops, sorry, the evangelical revival of the 18th century, you uh you find that uh much, much the same sort of thing was happening, read Whitfield's journals, right? And Wesley. Yeah, Jonathan Edwards.

01:05:16.629 - 01:05:35.800

And uh yeah, I mean, that's, that's where it's at. You see, and uh God has always moved by his spirit. I in these things, we just just haven't seen it or haven't. Uh I mean, I was too busy arguing about John Wesley's preaching and, and George

01:05:35.810 - 01:06:04.639

Whitfield's preaching. Um tt to worry about uh yeah, this is right. Yeah. Take them. Uh Well, two things we talking one before we take the other one after, um, we were talking about Phil Duncan, the less you sort of branch the church. And we also mentioned

01:06:04.649 - 01:06:22.399

that there was opposition from holding the penal process. And when it came to figuring out what all these, these people who used to wear those, I think they were suspicious. Um, the old time Pentecostals were suspicious. They'd been in the woodwork for a long time and

01:06:22.409 - 01:06:36.050

they didn't know what was going on. They really didn't at their own conference at the National conference in 1980 which was the first one since 1964. Right? One of them asked me about all this new music we were using and I couldn't quite get what he

01:06:36.060 - 01:06:48.840

was on about. And I said, well, new music, he says, well, you know, we've seen Come bless the Lord um today. And I thought, oh, new music and went away in a sort of a status stun shop and said to Frank Harvey, what is going on?

01:06:48.850 - 01:07:02.040

And Frank said to me, oh, well, he said, you don't realize that you've been dealing with the cream of Pentecostal leadership over the last few years and they um underneath the surface is all very much like skim milk sort of thing. You see, and they didn't

01:07:02.050 - 01:07:20.870

know what was going on. Uh with Phil Duncan. My association with Phil was at uh through the Temple Trust, uh was through the Sydney Minister's Charismatic Fellowship. And um Phil was rather like a father figure to us all. He sat back, you could see Phil sitting

01:07:20.879 - 01:07:40.679

back and soaking in everything that was going on and, and, and, and drooling in the fact that all these denominational people were talking about the same things that he'd been talking about for years. Yeah. That's right. That's right. Yeah. And very, very exciting. And, uh, didn't

01:07:40.689 - 01:07:53.739

have a lot of contact with him. I mean, you know, when I said I didn't have a lot of contact. That's not fair. It would be at least once a month. Um but it was usually at meetings and things and uh he was always a very

01:07:53.750 - 01:08:26.629

warm loving guy and, yeah. Yeah. That's right. Yeah. I don't know Alan's background. He was born in Belmore. He attended Bellmore Methodist Church or perhaps it was Moban. No, not Moban. What's Morefield Moorfields Methodist church? Um, was an architect by profession, uh went into Methodist ministry

01:08:27.209 - 01:08:47.669

and he was actually the pastor at Luga Bray Methodist Church when the Spirit fell Bondi Waverley Waverley. Yeah. And he started to have renewal meetings in the church and all these silly Anglicans went along there as well and some of them got baptized in the spirit

01:08:47.950 - 01:09:10.829

and that's, that's sort of, so it was out of LG Bray that things really started to move. I didn't care what differences with the high season. Well, Michael Harper was an influence on him. Um, probably 70. Yeah, Michael Harper was an influence on him. And then

01:09:10.838 - 01:09:27.410

Alan went overseas, he 72 Munich Games. He went Ooo on the y wham outreach to the Munich Games. And that really was the, the, the turning point I think for Alan and then the Lord, as he was reading Hay, the Lord gave him the vision of

01:09:27.419 - 01:09:53.709

the, of the temple. Um I probably should have some writing on, on, on, on that somewhere, but I wouldn't have a clue where it was. Yeah. Let me just take a break for a moment in terms of um the um beside them and, and, and your

01:09:53.720 - 01:10:12.339

links with other charismatic. Yeah. OK. Size of Anglican Renewal in Australia. There's some diocese where there doesn't seem to be anything, there's other diocese where there are things happening. Brisbane is probably the strongest brig. Brisbane. Armour is probably the strongest diocese and based armor group and

01:10:12.350 - 01:10:29.950

uh harvest ministries, although not part of armor works very closely with them. And that's based at Saint Mary's bars. Um Most of the men in, in Queensland and in other diocese who came into renewal, as I said, were basically Anglo Catholics. Uh Some of the um

01:10:31.250 - 01:10:52.069

uh but I mean, there's a good, good bunch of evangelicals involved. Um It's slow, there's a lot of men sort of don't want to become involved with a, an organization and yet I think they're missing out on two grounds. One, they've got something to give to

01:10:52.080 - 01:11:07.560

everybody else and they don't give it two, they uh don't know really what's going on in the church around the world. And I, I mean, from my point of view, I have probably got a very good grasp of what's happening in the world itself. Now, last

01:11:07.569 - 01:11:25.270

year, the year before we had the IO Conference, International Charismatic Consultation on World evangelization Barry was involved with that and, and that was a pretty exciting time. And in um October, I was, was at a consultation on short-term mission at Lore in Virginia, which brought 32

01:11:25.279 - 01:11:43.870

people involved in renewal right across the denominational board together. I still have contact with, with denominational uh other denominational people and some Pentecostals, not as much as I would like to, but one of my problems is I've got no office help so that I'm not only

01:11:43.879 - 01:11:57.569

the director of, so I'm also the director secretary and you know, that really ties me down. Um And I'd like to be able to get around a bit more. I'd like to be able to get around and see a lot of the guys in Anglican Renewal.

01:11:58.109 - 01:12:10.649

Now, some of us in Anglican Renewal from Bathurst, Canberra and Sydney. There's only about 10 or 10 or 12 of us meet together a couple of times a year. We have a retreat together for 24 hours and that's a good time. Always is we ha we

01:12:10.660 - 01:12:33.529

meet up at Bathurst. Uh Well, you got Bishop Bishop Jamieson in Bunbury. Um Perth, I don't know who's really doing much in Perth at the moment. Perth diocese. Um North West Australia. There's not much happening. Um Adelaide probably David Bins. That, uh David's a bit waver.

01:12:34.589 - 01:12:58.879

Um Peter Atherton in the diocese at the Murray. He's at uh Mount Barker. Uh, that's South Australia when you get to Victoria. Um, you've got, um, Jeff Glass who's now at by Maris. You've got Phillip Newman who's a Tak and who's the treasurer for Armor? I

01:12:59.129 - 01:13:30.379

second Phillip Newman. Um Tony Stevens is a layman. Uh He's the editor of Spirit Life, which is the arm of VIC publication. Um Ballarat, probably David Chisholm who used to be doing a Vision College, uh Bendigo, probably Richard Stamp at Inglewood. Uh Wangaratta Doug Schofield. Well,

01:13:30.390 - 01:13:47.729

I don't know that much is happening in Wang when you get to New South Wales. Um Nothing much in Riverina Diocese, Canberra, Chris Simon at Saint George's Pierce. So that South Woden um who's probably got one of the, who's probably got the Livest parish in Can,

01:13:48.819 - 01:14:15.629

they've got a fantastic youth ministry. Um You've got Bathurst, probably Michael Bain who's just been inducted at Forbes to replace Doug Peters. Um Sydney, I've mentioned John Davies, there's myself at De Egan at Canterbury. David Jones at All Saints Parramatta, John Steele at Lytton. I think

01:14:15.640 - 01:14:49.399

that David was. David comes home from England and America tomorrow. Um Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um Yeah, John Steele who's at Littleton, which is Lithgow area. Um, I'm not sure about Lindsay Johnson at Clavelle now. Um Lawrence Lovell down at Oakley. Yeah, I mean, that's, you know,

01:14:49.410 - 01:15:04.770

guys in Sydney but John Davies and I probably have the highest profile Richard Andrew at um Saint Paul's Wooga where we worshiped, uh, John Gelding at Ry Gary Child at North Epping. I mean, you know, Jo, and of course you've got baden win at Balga and

01:15:04.779 - 01:15:26.919

John Squires at Longville. John seems to be drifting back and Baden's doing his own thing. Um Newcastle, probably Dan Jensen at um uh Waratah grafted would be K Grafton diceys would be Ken Muns at Port Macquarie, who's the Armour National Secretary. Then when you get into

01:15:26.930 - 01:15:47.410

Queensland Brisbane, you've got uh Ian mcallister at Saint Mary's Bar Colin Roberts at Saint Jude's Etherton Park. Um Michael Ingle at ST Barnabas Sunnybank and then there's a whole lot of others. Um And then going up further north, there's Bishop Iain Stewart up in uh Cairns,

01:15:47.700 - 01:16:12.319

Bishop John Lewis in Townsville. No. Yeah, Townsville. Um And uh yeah, that's probably a fair, fair bunch of things as far as clergy are concerned anyway. I think we're, we're on a plateau and we're just about to move up again. That's, that's my own general feeling

01:16:12.330 - 01:16:31.120

of it. Um There is, of course an anglican circle suspicion of anybody who's high profile. Yeah, if you're not a bishop. Yeah. What gives you, I mean, I sort of get at times what gives you the right to do this ministry. And I said, perhaps I've

01:16:31.129 - 01:16:53.689

just been obedient. Well, that's the only way I can describe it. I mean, at the moment I've got a parish that extends from Bolivia to Zaire. Um, and, uh, yeah. Ok. Well.