00:00:00.129 - 00:00:27.909

And Barbara darling on the 18th of March 1987 by Margaret Lynn. Thank you very much for giving me your time and a very good about that. Could we just start by you giving me the authority? It was after a com Yeah, I agree. The we have

00:00:34.560 - 00:01:33.720

52 one to and then through friendship, I the decide at high or college or and the one the 19 mhm or finished my t the best of the this time. The appointment for very teaching. Yeah. And you know, didn't they, they put me on

00:01:33.750 - 00:02:17.270

his 230 units. One of the which was I found because it was on Victoria to be a lot more. I was used to buying. Not possible. Oh, I didn't do my spirit but not go ahead. OK. The lecture in the. So I decided to go on.

00:02:17.279 - 00:02:56.860

Not even you want me to all these if you want. Yeah. Um and is that why you developed work on well popular, your writing and history. Well, I started to teach courses here. I called church in Australian Society, which is a diploma of ministry level course.

00:02:56.869 - 00:03:17.130

And another one Australian Church history. And there's, I just found there's very few books that are in. But by looking at the Anglican Church, the history of the Anglican church showing books and the book like Patrick o'farrell's book for work. There's nothing like that, the Anglican

00:03:17.139 - 00:03:35.220

church, even though there are things being written now for the bicentenary year, there's still nothing quite the same as my shorter version that I hope will be of mine for my undergraduates. But also that sounds very good. Yeah. So, but it's a very daunting task. I

00:03:35.229 - 00:03:59.000

have a publisher. We, but it's still difficult to, you have to really choose the main things. There's no way. No, I noticed that. No. Yeah, rather don't. And when do you think that will be on? Well, it is meant to be out early next year. So

00:03:59.380 - 00:04:23.058

I'm meant to have it finished by August. Yes. Thank you. Um, I, I just wondered what, um, interested you, first of all, Chm and while you are out throughout the, I'm not quite sure. I think my name is probably might have been the slight increase with

00:04:23.158 - 00:04:40.790

me or the fact that I have written. No, the culture might have been Bishop Grant. I, I don't really know, but I found it f she in the office. Did, did you feel that you came to, to the bottom of the? Oh, a few people have

00:04:40.799 - 00:05:05.299

told me about the problem which had a long duration and 1000 my license, you know, do you think that really worth that was the panic? Which, you know I'm saying? I think I've mentioned it in the article but it seems to have he was a very

00:05:05.309 - 00:05:45.529

charismatic person. People flocked to him. It was a very good creature. Very good question. But I gather that he also managed to get me people sometimes too. The source of the problem. Probably close in a way that these days that today. So I think, yeah, you

00:05:45.709 - 00:06:20.290

know, embarrassing circumstances. Meanwhile, he had a wife, maybe he needed to feel needed just reaching out minister who that just, unfortunately someone said that when he was with NBI and he was very strict in the way he went process experiences who could have been, I could

00:06:20.299 - 00:06:49.950

have had something and he was older than he was. Yes, ma'am. Thank you. I do not something like that. But by that stage she'd already twice. I mean that she was not ok. He was reinstated. Yeah, I 66. So he was an older man. Sure. Yeah,

00:06:50.230 - 00:07:31.119

we've been through a lot. I think it's important to know that you went from Melbourne position rather disreputable. Coming through that, that particular costs. That's what he was lips but that was his decision we think. Mm Yes. And maybe he had to move. He seems to

00:07:31.130 - 00:07:54.950

have been developed a very strong interdenominational group of that. Like, oh yeah, he worked in the non church for a while and moved down to the church in England. So that probably gave him contact but also he seems to have been concerned with bleeding in the

00:07:54.959 - 00:08:29.929

gospel me after she was I hear very much about it cause mm and it stress me that into the nomination work here in Melbourne seems to have been stronger than Sydney. I underline the chemistry of if this is A I speaking know much about them even

00:08:29.940 - 00:08:55.400

though understand, you know, the Anglicans in Sydney seem to have been a stronger body, but they visited by themselves and they don't seem to have joined in as much regard. I know that you get very drunk. It just off the top. Yes. Yes. One man suggested

00:08:55.409 - 00:09:20.070

that because the Ris in Sydney were so strong. Perhaps there wasn't a need in Sydney for the strong cooling of evangelical resources because I'm really the most respected here. It's got a lot to do with it. The fact that Sydney is a very homogenous diocese, it's

00:09:20.080 - 00:09:45.950

mostly, but Melbourne, there are people from think that that means that some of them have in still you feel in the minority until they need to get together and to be with other people of like minds, whether they're Anglicans, you can see that here in scripture

00:09:46.859 - 00:10:22.940

that although it's interesting, people who belong to body often tend to be the same do it. There's a small, to me there's a smaller group of those people. Do you think that evangelical hasn't been classes, had quite as much fellowship evangelical Anglicans. Has there been more,

00:10:23.309 - 00:10:46.650

has there been a wider range of people who would call themselves evangelicals or do different things in Sydney and in Sydney? In my, what do you mean a wide range? Well, I'm thinking that there would be some who call me some evangelical faith, adopt certain practices.

00:10:46.659 - 00:11:02.059

Which one wouldn't have in Sydney? I see. Right. Yeah. When I first came from Sydney to Melbourne, um, parishes that said they were evangelical, for example, had um, candles on the table and the table. We had a lot of other practices and Sydney would have been

00:11:02.099 - 00:11:25.719

frowned on and I think there's probably a breath but there are still some people, black and white evangelical conservative in the approach. I think there's a younger brand of people who are evangelical based, that they're happy to have color and s some of the older, do

00:11:25.729 - 00:11:53.119

you think that there's been some, there's something in the argument that I can't remember the name of the archbishop, one of the more recent archbishops who tried to take an evangelical curate the grip making it difficult that has had something to do with the, I don't

00:11:53.130 - 00:12:18.580

know, cementing of, of, of decreases. His, his, his reason for doing this reception has been to, to stop clicking it. But uh secretary suggested that it had the opposite effect that it's made life very difficult for the. Ok. Sure. Yes, it could have there's a problem

00:12:18.590 - 00:12:42.830

now in the placing of evangelical purity because there don't seem to be enough evangelical parishes willing to have curates. Part of the problem is that some of the really successful ones like Que up, although Saint Jesus is taking on chips, some of them have people that

00:12:42.840 - 00:13:02.539

they employ themselves that are to pastoral workers, have youth workers and I have other people. So I have quite a big staff but they don't necessarily join. So that means less availability for curate physicians. And that's the problem that we are here at R which is

00:13:02.780 - 00:13:22.869

a directly based college, have more people coming out and people other different colleges that have less evangelical persuasion and it's harder to find parachutes are. And so they have to go to parishes in a different tradition. I think it would be less than a third of

00:13:22.880 - 00:13:49.419

the parishes that would be considered evangelical depends on. But um there's going to be fewer countries that can afford to expend. That's lovely in Sydney. Some have other people coming in there and some. No, I didn't. I'm not aware of that. It could well be found.

00:13:49.599 - 00:14:10.340

Well, that is just going to ask you, um, would you like to tell me a little bit of that? Have you perceived the work of a good college? And do you know enough about this? I was just going to compare with them more, but have you?

00:14:11.070 - 00:14:35.000

No, I It's just Victoria. Yes. Britney. Was founded in 1908 and began to develop a and actually done by a group of most lay people, laymen, evangelicals, some from Melbourne. But it was specifically for training for young men who were the country diocese from Bendigo, in

00:14:35.119 - 00:14:57.359

particular, the they had their own college, I think still that check up. But no, um mostly the two bishops that were favorable were the Doctor Payne from Gibson Moment and they were both on the Council of, of Ridley though. They didn't quite know them, the situation

00:14:57.369 - 00:15:13.700

at times because some of them were more helpful than others. But they were going to help Ridley College as a sort of sub branch of Trinity College, which was the established college developed in 1972 that was Metris for people who actually had been, they just see

00:15:13.710 - 00:15:25.940

equivalent and they went to college there and presumably with a B A and they did training as well or BD or whatever it was for to go into the ministry. But a lot of the people that were to go to r were young men who had,

00:15:25.950 - 00:15:40.299

didn't have the money or the opportunity to be university graduates or even matriculants. Some of them went down to the University of Melbourne and some of them just did a T hr here and they just hired the house in the first couple of years and I

00:15:40.309 - 00:15:54.630

moved and moved again in 1920 to this site. So we've been on the site and see that it's developed and grown from its very beginning. It's been a university or a college. It's been a place for university students as well as a place for theological students.

00:15:54.640 - 00:16:16.929

So they've always tried to have that mix to, to have people and it became an fishery in the college, the university receiving funding until last year. And the government decided for any university colleges. So you're having a difficult time. And uh we were the first college

00:16:16.940 - 00:16:42.250

to become co with girls admitted in our Doctor Myers. That was right. And that was the first 50 years or so. They will see one and then two members, the principal and then Doctor Miles is assistant principal and then went away and came. And the last

00:16:42.260 - 00:17:00.159

12 years I've been here. I've seen a remarkable change from a small group of mostly single, most women, mostly living in theological students. We're now mostly living out mostly older, mostly married men and women. Um And it's just been very interesting to see that change over

00:17:00.169 - 00:17:14.859

the last 12 years. We've got over 330 students now, but I think only 75 of them are full time. A lot of them continue to be and do one or two subjects a year. And some come just in the evening, some have flexi come. Do you

00:17:14.869 - 00:17:30.969

see many of who are on commission? We work some. Yep. I can just say to you that we're still a university college and we've got about 80 students at um, university and RMIT Pharmacy College and other tertiary institutions. So we've still got that mixing missionary work

00:17:30.979 - 00:17:45.319

where we've got Saint Andrews Hall for CNS next door to us. So we have a close relationship with them. They come here for chapel once a week or once a fort and some of them come to our classes. Although that's changing because they're going to have

00:17:45.329 - 00:17:59.670

from now on the necessity for them to have done a Bible college course or a theological college course before they go to. So, for example, this year, I think we have three or four who are studying with us and we'll go to Saint Andrews next year

00:18:00.239 - 00:18:14.959

and we have one of our students from last year who's now Saint Andrews dying and we did a full BT h course. So we have quite a close relationship that we wouldn't have a lot of students. It would be a couple probably each year. Whereas we'd

00:18:14.969 - 00:18:33.329

have probably about 20 or names each year probably would have. Yes, it's about that. We'd have about 20 audiences in college and about 20 graduate cos some go through and then decide to apply for full time ministry once in the last year when they finished. Yeah.

00:18:33.339 - 00:18:46.640

So some come in not knowing and a lot of them and we see that a lot and a lot of them give up their good jobs and their homes and travel to state. We've got people quite a few from Sydney that come here and that leads

00:18:46.650 - 00:19:02.680

on to the comment about um, Ridley is seen by many and I would agree as being more open in the way in which we approach the scriptures. We certainly did would be based in evangelical, but we would have probably a different breadth of more college has

00:19:02.979 - 00:19:18.260

been seen as having and would say itself, I think a certain line and a certain approach to the scriptures which they promote vigorously. Whereas we put forward our point of view, but we also put forward different that we have people here who are not as not

00:19:18.270 - 00:19:40.660

necessarily a good designer. We have different groups. You learn a lot about your lecturates that they, I think that would all be evangelical. They're nearly all ordained. That's another difference. I was ordained last year and there's another woman member of staff being ordained next month. The

00:19:41.560 - 00:19:58.469

he was the first to, to the at Ridley. No, no, I wasn't in the second batch. I was in the batch of non dees workers in May and quite a few graduates. There are 10 of us and I seven of us or six of us will

00:19:58.479 - 00:20:20.589

be to go to us. One is that are taught was a good bunch. Several of us have come from Sydney. It's interesting one that principles come from New Zealand Charles Sherlock lectured for a while college, but we've studied here. Tom Cruise, went to more college as

00:20:20.599 - 00:20:43.229

a student. The rest of us have. Must. Oh, no. Sorry, Robin Payne and John Cry are also at college. So we've had a more of an college trained people. We did that, that most of us would come. And what do you see as the advantages of,

00:20:43.239 - 00:21:07.150

of your position or do you see it as an advantage to the position of rugby? I mean, rather than that uh the position of moronic theological, there's probably advantages or disadvantages, I suppose. I think Sydney, as I said before, as the diocese is more in one

00:21:07.160 - 00:21:23.790

mold. Whereas if we can, we need to be open to different points of view, we also have community colleges now and we have a little bit of mingling with students who are going to be or they get to hear different ideas and see people crossing themselves

00:21:23.800 - 00:21:43.140

and doing p type things that we don't do a bit in. But we, we're trying to have an increasing emphasis on the word of God and preaching, especially because graduate start convinced about the relevance of the word of God to do. And that's why we have

00:21:43.209 - 00:22:04.719

di in courses, the courses that apply the word of group, like like my church. And we try now from now on all Melbourne ordinances are going to be expected to do a combined course of either BT H and Dick or Thl and Dick. And so we

00:22:04.729 - 00:22:22.010

have both the practical, I don't know if I answer your question but I, I like, I like that education theologically. I'm not sure if I answer. Yes. I think, I think so in the time we have, um, can we just move on to the role of

00:22:22.020 - 00:22:51.959

women and, and particularly thinking of it in, uh, the development of the evangelical position and the ordination of women? Mhm. Um, have your views changed? What, what was it a, was it a hard decision? Was it a simple decision to be ordained? It was a process.

00:22:52.510 - 00:23:05.500

Um I don't think I've ever believed that the Bible has said that people, women should not get ordained. I have had to examine very carefully what the Bible has said and what it means. I've been helped by people like Doctor Morris, who was our principal and

00:23:05.510 - 00:23:18.900

Kevin Giles who are evangelicals. Doctor Morris has offered me a personally support and encouragement and he asked me to preach and I, you know, I first didn't think I'd be preaching and then he said, well, look, you are under the authority of the word of God

00:23:18.910 - 00:23:30.869

and you're under my authority. And that helped me to work that through and then to realize that I did have a gift and could preach. At first, I wasn't sure cos I'd come from a situation where I didn't have that experience and practice. So I think

00:23:30.880 - 00:23:44.780

it's something that developed over the years. If anyone had asked me in 1975 would I have considered a donation? I don't think it was right then. But by 1980 I really felt it was right to offer to the diocese for full time service as all the

00:23:44.790 - 00:23:56.540

other members of staff were, were ordained. And I thought that I was doing a role here. That was a ministry that was full time ministry. So I went to selection conference and asked them to be selected and they said, what is? And I didn't know and

00:23:56.550 - 00:24:10.030

they didn't know at that stage, we hadn't had women in Melbourne who'd been ordained deaconesses because we thought Dickens might be coming in. And we didn't quite know what the role of the Dickens was who was ordained but wasn't ordained according to Clayton's ordination. So we

00:24:10.040 - 00:24:23.030

don't quite know that. And so some of the rest of the people were trained women workers and some were pastoral workers. And I was selected as a trained woman worker and became a trained woman worker here for five years. Then when it became possible. Now, actually

00:24:23.040 - 00:24:35.689

the year before it became possible, I had an operation and I really had to think through where I was going in life and what was it about? And we had a new um archbishop who really seemed to think that there was more in being a deaconess

00:24:35.699 - 00:24:48.829

and, and being a trained woman worker with the previous archbishop who treat, she treated us equally but he seemed to feel that there was more commitment in deaconess than in trained women worker. And by that stage, two of the younger women had been ordained deaconesses. So

00:24:48.839 - 00:25:03.010

we'd gone back to deaconesses again. So I decided to offer as a deaconess, the thinking deacon would be years away. I went to see the archbishop and offered and he said, wait till after General Synod, that was in July 85. And after General Synod, it was

00:25:03.020 - 00:25:14.920

possible to offer it as a deacon. So I did and we went through another selection process and then I was able to go ahead with my friends as I said before and what a deacon. So to me, it seemed to be God leading me in different

00:25:14.930 - 00:25:30.459

ways. But I still had to put up with people who just put up and people who've disagreed and think through carefully the implications and what it means. But here in Melbourne, the evangelical, some have been very supportive, the person I worked with John Clark at Saint

00:25:30.469 - 00:25:46.310

John's Heidelberg. I was there for eight years with the parents on Sundays. He's been very supportive and that will be involved in the full life of the church preaching and teaching and taking out of education group and preparing confirmation. Yeah, totally involved that helped. There's a

00:25:46.319 - 00:26:04.010

few, a few, only a few who are dead against it and they've spoken in Synod and they say it's against the word of God. But they don't listen to us when we try and explain. So the evangelicals basically would be, I think in favor of the

00:26:04.349 - 00:26:25.040

national, it was a 93% vote for deacons at northern diocese in the s So that means that a lot of, a lot of evangelicals are for it. There are some, and some Anglo Catholics and that's joined together the two extremes in the diocese. It's sad and

00:26:25.050 - 00:26:34.920

I don't want to be the cause of division. And yet I know if women are not all day, there's going to be a lot of people leaving the church because of that. And I have seen so many of the women coming through college here with so

00:26:34.930 - 00:26:59.420

many gifts and God using them in so many ways that pragmatically as well as theologically just one theological point. I know you don't have much time when, if you wanted to just briefly, if you support for the national women theologically. Currently, I've just been helping to

00:26:59.430 - 00:27:12.160

write a booklet on this and we were looking at it, looking at four different aspects and seeing different aspects of how, how it comes is not against the word of God. And we decided to put it positively that it is in line with the principles of

00:27:12.170 - 00:27:26.630

the word of God by looking at Jesus relation to women, how he involved them, and he talked to women, he cared for them, he had them helping him in his ministry. Then by going on to look at Paul who despite the several words that are quoted,

00:27:26.640 - 00:27:42.420

Paul also had women that he encouraged and helped and, and viewed together with him ministry and he quotes talking about Aquila and Priscilla. There's Phoebe who's the woman deacon junior who probably is a female apostle, but we're not quite sure about that. And other women who

00:27:42.430 - 00:27:58.609

I mentioned who are coworkers, there's the four prophecy and daughters of Philip and there's others that obviously exercise the ministry. We can't say definitely they were ordained because ordination as such. And the three year old daughter was not in the New Testament developed from concepts in.

00:27:59.500 - 00:28:11.739

So I think I would try to say that plus what has become a proof text, which I wouldn't say alone but Galatians 328 where it talks about we're all one in Christ and there's no other male or female, feudal gentile slave and free. And I think

00:28:11.750 - 00:28:29.589

the whole concept of the Bible, the word of God should be free and liberating and looking at the passages on gifts, Ephesians four and Romans ta we, we are all given gift for the building up of the body. I guess so. Yes. Uh uh I, I

00:28:29.599 - 00:28:53.489

can, I can follow the gift and I do think that women in the past haven't exercised in the mission and they have been in Melbourne as in saint, they have been not fully but they have been able to. And in Sydney too. They've been. Yes. Although

00:28:53.510 - 00:29:11.439

the deaconess in Sydney seems to have fallen very much. No, not now. There's, there's many more people becoming deaconesses now. They were dating before. I think, I think that the archbishop's answer to the coin of women as deacons, they can be within deaconess. Yeah. But I

00:29:11.449 - 00:29:24.750

think the stress has been there mostly on, um, work with Children and with women rather than with adult men. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that has been, but I think that here at college teaching, I had to come to terms with that and say that the

00:29:24.760 - 00:29:38.275

students at first, I was the first full time with me and one person did walk out just before I preached a sermon. And another one didn't like, um, the idea of a woman on staff. But that was in very early days. And ever since then, people

00:29:38.285 - 00:29:56.989

have been very supportive and now Robin's here teaching because I taught him fringe subjects. Not, not the main ones. Old and New Testament, like on church history and communications and Christian education. And it was more acceptable for a woman to do, but not as threatening to

00:29:57.000 - 00:30:29.069

teach the Bible. And yet people say they can learn as much from a woman as a man. Just one other question on women. And do you think that the, um, the old, I don't know if you've studied this? But the, the role of the evangelical woman

00:30:29.079 - 00:30:51.540

saying the early part of this century is, has that gradually developed to the place where a woman like you is lecturing here in RD or do you think there's, do, do you think that there's been a dramatic change? No, I don't think dramatic because we've had

00:30:51.630 - 00:31:07.109

decon, I think a lot of people like Mrs Marjory Stanway and others have been able to offer for ministry overseas as missionaries, either missionary wives or as single missionaries and some of them cut them and others have been able to do things overseas teaching and leading

00:31:07.489 - 00:31:22.569

Janet White who was in Canberra, who unfortunately died in a car accident last year. Um I remember John Wilson at his her eulogy said how tragic it was that she had such a missionary ministry overseas and came back and wasn't accepted. But I think it has

00:31:22.579 - 00:31:36.000

gradually been growing and developing. I think the fact that reading for my thesis in the 19 twenties, they were arguing about whether women should be on vestries and they worked through the vestry one and they worked through the church warden one, then they worked through the

00:31:36.010 - 00:31:51.560

Synod reps. And now I'm not sure about Sydney as much. But if you go into Melbourne parishes, you have women or girl serves together with boys. If they serve, you have women helping not just with the the tea and the flowers, but with reading the lessons,

00:31:52.030 - 00:32:11.339

intercessions um taking up the offer tree and welcoming on the door and things like that. So, they, they're more fully involved in the whole life of the church that's been changing gradually. Do you know anything about, uh, the Christian Women's convention move very little. I'm afraid

00:32:13.449 - 00:32:41.060

cancer. Um, evangelical conservatism. Um, I don't know whether you cast the Mother's Union movement as it was. I don't know what it's like here in Melbourne. But, um, would you say that was primarily evangelical? Probably not. I just thought Althea Dunn could be someone worth your

00:32:41.069 - 00:32:58.040

while seeing she's a uh mother's union representative, forgotten her exact position now that she might be president. But she could be interesting to talk to. I think they're just representative of um, of different groups of people. Uh As far as I can see, Nancy Black is

00:32:58.050 - 00:33:21.410

another person too. They're not particularly one churchman or another. Right. But I'm sorry, that would be better to ask someone else here. Um Do you see the important link of C MS with the development of me? Di I'm sorry, I'm changing. Uh It, it was said

00:33:21.420 - 00:33:42.280

to me by a few people at the senior league of Youth was um a very important body and it, uh men like Bishop Stanley and others were heavily involved in that and that there was an impetus in their ministries of young people, which was significant and

00:33:42.290 - 00:33:56.979

fast. Yeah, I think so. Especially the forties I think was the peak period, the thirties and forties, but it seemed to have gone into a decline the last 10 or 20 years. But it seems to be coming out of that again at the moment, a resurgence

00:33:56.989 - 00:34:24.070

of seams youth which is following but in the evangelical circles, yes, I'd say Belgrave Heights and were two significant factors in time is gone. Oh, it can be, um, just a few things the, um, we mentioned before the book that they chambers rate on Ch Nash,

00:34:24.080 - 00:34:41.780

would you mind just suggesting the sorts of is, is you're much more OK with it than I am. The sorts of areas and re trash of questions in maybe why he left out what he left out and why they put in what he put in. And

00:34:41.790 - 00:34:55.709

I think the answer he's told me related to that is just the closeness that he had aid to the family because he, he worked with him as his curate, I think. And then later on when he was up in Belgrave CS was virtually his curate working

00:34:55.719 - 00:35:12.159

with him. So I think he obviously had a great attachment to the man and it's not an objective history. It's someone writing almost a panegyric history talking in not quite as 19th century away as they did. But I think David Chambers himself would say he's changed

00:35:12.169 - 00:35:25.790

and developed since he wrote that book and he probably would write it completely differently now, 25 years later or whatever it is from when he voted, which was just after he died. And he was writing it to preserve the memory of a great man. The people

00:35:25.800 - 00:35:42.699

that knew him and his family was still around too. There were problems in later life with the relationship between Ch Nash and his wife and they actually separated. But you don't realize that from reading a book that, that question came into my mind because he was,

00:35:42.709 - 00:36:00.659

I read it through and I thought, went to visit Sydney and it said he went and then she went off, apparently they agreed to separate. I think it was during the war when he went to Hobart and he stayed with some Children and she went elsewhere.

00:36:00.679 - 00:36:17.010

And apparently he obviously must have been a difficult person to live with, which was sad. And yet obviously a very great person and charismatic person that people like David Chambers obviously learned a great deal from. I didn't even know he died before he did the Bible

00:36:17.080 - 00:36:40.139

studies at the I met him. He was an old man in what I thought was fascinating was that he was asked to go to Sydney's ordination. Yes. And the archbishop used him so much. And if he was separated from his wife that extra because archbishop was

00:36:40.149 - 00:36:56.455

such a strict, I don't think they were divorced and I don't think there's any intention of living with anyone else that they need to go their own way. But still that was a, I think they came back together again at times and then went off again.

00:36:56.465 - 00:37:08.489

I don't think it was a total, but David Chambers would know more and I did ask him about that when I was doing the wrong one because it's little details like that, that people are interested in knowing and yet he's obviously still been a man of

00:37:08.500 - 00:37:33.580

God and been used by whatever his personal relationships. And I think that's what David Chambers wanted to stress rather than what happened. Well, I think, and, and that's right too, although it's perhaps good for us to see more clearly what, um, how others men, Godly men

00:37:33.590 - 00:37:48.790

like Nash have, have moved and it helps us. Doesn't, that's right. But others like Bishop Stanley, I mean, he's, he is the one that the younger generation talk about that likes the h he's been a real man of God. I remember when I first came here,

00:37:48.810 - 00:38:02.929

he was the deputy principal here and he used to teach us in Galatians. He used to teach us nothing about Galatians and he got so confused about the North and South Galatian theory. And then he'd give up halfway through and he would remind him of something.

00:38:02.939 - 00:38:17.389

And he would say now when I was in Africa and he was in Africa for 27 years, which he used to tell us twice a lecture and he'd go rambling off on some wonderful spiritual truth that was mildly related to Galatians. And we learnt more about

00:38:17.399 - 00:38:30.360

God and his relationship with God through those lectures. Nothing at all about Galatians. Someone rescued us in the third term when he taught us about Galatians. But I was so grateful for that opportunity to sit and learn from him and listen to him. And it is

00:38:30.370 - 00:38:42.689

so frustrating for him. Now that he can't speak. There's so much within Him. He wants to get out and he still can't. But to me, he's one of the great men of God I've met and he used to help us, you know, with, um talking about

00:38:42.699 - 00:38:57.939

uh guidance, you know, sort of pray about it and step out and go ahead and give lots of hints for young people and help them along. That. That's an important thing. What would be your advice about guidance goodness? Well, following on from what he used to

00:38:57.949 - 00:39:09.949

say, it was really to, to turn to God and to ask God and, and he all I remember him saying that never leave a place until another door is open. Cos I know I've thought at times about leaving here and I found that has been helpful,

00:39:10.169 - 00:39:23.000

I think with guidance, it's important to pray and to read the Bible, but also to talk to others. And I also find it helpful if there's two alternatives to write down the fours and the against and to pray about them and then to make a decision

00:39:23.010 - 00:39:36.719

and stick to it. I, when I was coming to Ridley, I prayed that God would open the right door and that out of the three of d and his house, more college in Ridley. And, uh, he left all three doors open and I had to make

00:39:36.729 - 00:39:48.709

the decision and I found that was a real learning process. He's got a sense of humor and had I not, you know, had coming here opened up doors that I would never have dreamt would have been open. I didn't think I would have stayed here and

00:39:48.719 - 00:40:08.520

would have got ordained and a whole lot of other things or gone into further research work. That's interesting. That wouldn't have happened. I don't think it's there. I think so. Barbara, are there any other books or Frank Ingor Australian Christians in Conflict and Unity which talks

00:40:08.530 - 00:40:29.179

about the, the search towards unity? I found that was quite helpful. Mentioned a couple of hours before we've got David experiences. Do you find that a good one? Yes, I enjoyed that. There is a little one on the history of C MS that touches on the

00:40:29.189 - 00:40:50.570

CC MS League of Youth. Have you seen that here? The talk? That's right. Is there anything else written on Melbourne or anything about The Langley? Not that comes to mind straight away because they are a couple, they seem to have been very important brothers. I haven't

00:40:50.780 - 00:41:16.719

seen anything. No, sorry, you've got your L Nash's book, Book and Chambers Book. Mhm. Keith Cole has written a lot of different books. Geographical. It said that it's not recognized by C MS has been very good. Some of them, I think the later ones, the ones

00:41:16.729 - 00:41:47.379

on Island and others, but there's one on our first student here who became a bishop. Um, um I'm going to start, it'll be up until, could we just finish up by talking about the N A conference when Poor Bart Barnard presented some paper and there was

00:41:47.409 - 00:42:09.760

uh some dissension. Yeah, that's 1981 and I was a participant, but I haven't got a very clear memory. I know there were differences in opinion that developed between Sydney evangelicalism and Melbourne evangelicalism. And Melbourne again, linking with what we said before seemed to have a breath

00:42:09.860 - 00:42:26.489

and an openness that some of the Sydney people didn't seem to display. And I think it came, I'm not sure over the issue of social justice and how much social justice is integral to the gospel and how much it comes after the gospel. But you'd have

00:42:26.500 - 00:42:42.010

to just check on that with someone else. But there were differences of opinion that came out of some of the decisions that we made at the end. And were there repercussions after that? Uh I believe that in the, the following conference at Canberra, Sydney was very

00:42:42.020 - 00:42:56.899

poorly represented. Well, I don't know if that was because of that. We did have another mini NIAC a couple of years later at Macquarie University and I went to that and that was organized by some Sydney evangelicals and, uh, Peter Marshall and others came and spoke

00:42:57.580 - 00:43:10.659

and there were people from most different States, I think. But again, not terribly many from Sydney. So I don't know whether it was a deliberate boycott or just, there's a group of people that thought that that wasn't as important as other things they were doing and

00:43:10.669 - 00:43:29.189

I'm not sure about the Canberra ones. I don't know why I was on sabbatical. I didn't go to it. So I don't know, thinking of this type of thing, how effective is, I don't really know Australian mind how effective it is here. I was on the,

00:43:30.010 - 00:43:45.899

the executive for a while and personally, I found it a bit difficult because there were a couple of the old guard versus the other people with different ideas. Some of the old guard found it very hard to uh come to grips with the new ideas, including

00:43:45.909 - 00:43:59.860

ordination of women and as someone who was applying for ordination that was a bit difficult and a bit frustrating that we seem to be caught up in the hassles that we thought we had dealt with and they were still an issue to, to several people. But

00:43:59.870 - 00:44:11.989

on the other hand, they did do some, some good work and try and get involved in, in some issues that were of concern to the church and to the community. I'm not sure how it is on an Australian wide basis. In Melbourne, there's two groups, there's

00:44:12.000 - 00:44:27.679

a group that puts out Vent, which is your local paper. And there's also the UFA bulletin, which is the Australian wide one. And I think they need a bit more um coordinations between the two of them there. That's just a personal view. Where could I get

00:44:27.689 - 00:44:53.320

copies of those paper right here? I think I can today. Um Vent is just the local type thing which is looking with various different issues. And then ean is another little printed bulletin that comes usually with it, it would be in our library. Can, can you

00:44:53.330 - 00:45:14.719

just tell me very briefly uh about uh evangelicals sort of forming together to well have tickets, right? There's two different versions in Melbourne Diocese, some of whom think that it's necessary to be against the opposition and to have um a number of good solid evangelicals put

00:45:14.729 - 00:45:30.245

forward for various divisions and they, a group of them still meet together um and try and have some kind of ticket against the Anglo Catholics. There's another group of which I'm a member. Um And we, we don't think that we should necessarily have tickets, especially if

00:45:30.254 - 00:45:43.209

they're going to be secret. And if we did have a ticket, we'd rather it was open and we knew who suggested the names and why they suggested them. Um I, I would rather um choose someone who is suitable for the position, whether they're evangelical or Anglo

00:45:43.219 - 00:45:57.219

Catholic. If someone is looking at an issue of social justice and obviously has experience in that area, I personally would vote for that person rather than an evangelical name put down just to get an evangelical on. But others would disagree. And I think there is a

00:45:57.229 - 00:46:13.040

danger that we get overrepresented in one area and not in another. It's very interesting at the moment because Archbishop David Penman is from his evangelical background and some of the Anglo Catholics and more liberal people are worried that he's bringing in too many evangelicals into positions

00:46:13.050 - 00:46:27.709

of power. But some of the evangelicals are worried that he's trying to include too many other people because he's trying to be as fair as he can in my estimation. And if he elects an evangelical bishop, then he'll nominate one who's not an evangelical. So that's

00:46:27.719 - 00:46:42.129

caused a few problems the last couple of years in the diocese. It's a tricky one that you might like to ask him about. If he wants to answer. It's a difficult position because he's in a diocese that he's not all evangelical and he can't impose even.

00:46:45.860 - 00:47:01.199

Yeah. Yeah. So that's difficult. But there was a ticket last time. Uh some of whom got on, some of whom did not get on. And so that was just introduced a year ago. No, that's been going for quite some time but was reintroduced, I think either

00:47:01.209 - 00:47:17.629

last elections or the elections before. And do you secularize all men? No, certain Cinnamon does have run up in time. I don't know, I was a senior member but I was an earner and yet I was asked to go on the ticket. It was really fun.

00:47:17.659 - 00:47:23.949

I only found out later where I was on the ticket. Well, thank you again.