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Interview on the ninth of January 1986 with Mrs Howard Guinness and with a couple of very specific questions, just things that I wanted to ask you before I go anyway or not to have important less. And Howard was invited out to Australia in 1929 by JB

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Nicholson. Yes. Can you tell us anything about him? Who was he? He was a very keen Bren, remember, wealthy businessman and loved to help any Christian organization or Christian people. What business was in? No idea. I remember that. Did you meet him anything? Now, now, this

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was long before I knew my husband. When did you marry him at 3910 years after you first almost in Australia? And also did you ever know AAA an English doctor called Jack Simmons? I've heard his name but I didn't know he went over there and went

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out to Africa. He was the Bible church Bible church missionary fellowship and he trained with at Barts at bars. So I sent him a copy of this book. I got two copies. I've been sending one copy of three. All right. Well, one of the things you

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want to study in this book is uh evangelical spirituality. I just explained, we wrote a book about Australian evangelicalism. Uh Basically, uh we want to cover four things. We want to have a look at the institutions of evangelical, including the Christian Unions, things like prescription and

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the major evangelical churches. So they, so the major institutions, we want to have a look at the distinctive evangelical doctrines. We want to have a look at uh evangelical spirituality. And uh there was 1/4 thing which I forget doctor doctor mythology, doctrine, theology did the same

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thing, spirituality institutions. It was the fourth thing when I was a Tasmania, I thought really nice. But the thing that struck me about how you with this at this point. Yes. Uh He was a man with a very significant spiritual man. Could you tell us of

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that? How he would characterize his spirituality of the marks of his spiritual walk with God? He had to remind his faith and God a simple, very strong faith. One of his favorite passages was Romans at the end of Romans eight, which will separate us from the

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love of God. He was a very positive person. He always knew that whatever happened, God was on the throne and would bring everything out for good. These are twenties. I always um remember him as having a very strong sense of the majesty of God. And for

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him, life was, was climbing a mountain. I like the picture up there. That's one of these is his favorite pictures and he had a text at the bottom saying you need not be far up, but you must apply them. And I think that probably characterized his

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life. He was a very humble person who, um, he was big enough to say sorry. Yes. And he felt that he had offended in any way. And ok, there you go. But he was direct. He was very direct. He never minced his words, never, never beat

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about the bush, especially with young people, I think, yes, he was very fond of young people and, um, always made you feel that you were important to him and that he believed in you. I was aware of that because I spoke to him, I mentioned that

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I became a Christian under his ministry at Saint Michael. And uh the thing that attracted me to him before he even spoke was the way he sang. And I suddenly had the absolute assurance that this man, New God just from the way he says. And when,

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when I was talking to him, that was crystallized into words, but I'd never felt this about anybody before and had written, just overwhelmed me and his concern for me and my position. He knew I wasn't a Christian and he talked with me and I, I guess

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really that was what changed me, the knowledge that I was talking to a man who you got, it was really Sure. Absolutely. Yes. And didn't have quite glass this, I hope you get what I'm trying to say that, do you think that Howard was a bit

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distinctive? And that he seem to love seemed to be more important to him than truth, the wrong way. He didn't seem to be to be. No, I wouldn't say that at all. He would. No, no, he was, he was passionate about the truth. And would he

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offend people in order to maintain the, he could do it? Yes, I tell you, I ask you that because I had a very, an experience with him was very precious to me. When I was at Sydney University, we had a meeting once where he spoke and

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I disagreed with him furiously and I was an aggressive apathy. And so after it was all over, I sort of disagree, then it was something they allow to speak. And I could tell that everybody in the group was aghast, but I'll take it. I'm a great

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man said, and I looked around and I myself, I, I don't know, I've, I've cut myself off for you. And he, he just said, of course, he said in your emphasis, you're entitled to it. And he came over to me and put his up and I

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always felt that he was incredibly loving me. Yes, he was. Yes. I mean, he could have taken advantage of the fact that he had everybody on his side to say you ignorant idiot. Get, get the truth. Right. He wouldn't mind about the other people. No, no,

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he would care very much about you, but also about the truth. But he recognized that young people want to argue, I think. And he'd, he enjoyed arguing here often felt that there was nothing more that he enjoyed than a really good party argument he was, of

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course, very experienced by. Oh, yes. Yes. Do you think that he was the sort of person who learned from his experience as a? Oh, I do. Yes. On the other hand, I think he was a very, um, it's the word, not exactly a one track person

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but he, he wouldn't have swerved. I mean, if he found no, that's not quite true because he was writing a book in which he was querying a few theological facts. But, um, he was pretty straight down, you know, but not straight with people and he loved

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people but he, he would, um, want them to know the truth too. He wasn't afraid to be controversial, was he? That's the one I was thinking he was. And he has published that book. Has it? Oh, that was a book. He said that he was writing

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a book in the, oh, well, this was the one I was thinking of at that moment. Um, now that's his most recent book. There was nothing that he was writing that he never published. He was writing the story of um, his grandfather, but that wasn't published.

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But that's the only thing that hasn't been published. Where are all the house papers now? Oh, I've got most of them here. And did he ever die in his life? Yes. He kept diary a great deal of his life. That's the one in terms of, well,

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it's not printed. It's just in a lot of different volumes. What sort of things that he put in his diary? Well, it was mostly when he was traveling around the world, speaking to students, mostly um student work and contacted her with different people. Occasionally, so many

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things but not, not so much spiritual insight of the way. I'm sure there were, but it was mostly fair. It's similar to his book. You've got a great deal of it in his book, I guess, to use the diaries to write that book, we putting everything

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you've said together. He started off by saying he had a very positive faith in God. Yeah. Worthy old and truthful way he could be flexible. Does this have to do with the fact that he was a doctor? They're not stupid? No. Um Yes, I think it

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did influence him in a way. Um It's very hard to put into words, but I think he was um not exactly diagnostic but he, if there was anything wrong with anyone, he was very um direct in trying to find what it was. And I think this

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was his medical training. I mean, if you were physically ill, he would immediately go to the source of the thing and pinned it down. You know, he had very wonderful hands. Do you remember his big hands? He was a very, very, uh, gentle person in a

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way. Um, but his hands were very strong and that was characteristic of his character. I think the mixture of the strength and the gentleness and that his medicine had helped him to be very, um, I don't mean impartial. What's the word? Not emotionally involved? Yes. In

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the way of spirit. Did he have a personal friendship at all? With Martin Roy? J? No, I don't think a personal one as far as I know. Well, that might have been some time ago, I guess some people doctors. Yes. Yes. His father was a doctor

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too. The preacher Hards father. Ok. It was very like his phone. Did Howard ever talk to either of you at any length about his impressions of Sydney and doctors do that? Let me just see, had a bit of chat about back and forth after the conference

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to. Do you mean about your comments about their spiritual state or, or what, or any reactions to it at all? I take it Sydney Anglican evangelicalism is rather distinctive thing, how it came from non Sydney background into it. Did he feel, did he feel the different

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stuff? I think he had such a wide contact with students and student organizations all around the world that he more or less took it as he found it. I mean, we know that Sydney Diocese is perhaps different from the other diocese in Sydney in Australia. But,

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um, I think having been at the beginning of the A FPs, he swallowed it round and was willing to guide it from whatever state it was, we were never conscious that any has there was a problem to him. Not particularly because it was Sydney. I think

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any student organization has its ups and downs some years, it's very strong and other years it isn't. And he felt this and he used to try and help them. But I know I never heard him comment particularly about Sydney when he was rector of vs. Was

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he more involved with his positions or was he more involved with his students? Well, at that time, most of the time it was with his parish, but he did take a number of missions. He took missions in Sydney and in other parts of Australia and he

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was overseas once twice. But I think it had probably changed quite a bit to being in his parish. Good. But he always was most interested in young people, I think. Wouldn't you say that Francis? Yes, that was his great priority. Really, wasn't it? I wonder if

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his um he, he couldn't continue an ongoing ministry with students because of his, his voice was going, yeah, I don't think that would have hindered him. Although you see, he had to preach in church anyway. He had to use his voice when, when I was coming

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up here. Um, when you first moved up here. And, uh, um, he wasn't having a lot to do with, I used to tell him what was going on at conferences. Um, but he didn't really have very much contact with him at that. I think he probably

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thought he'd, growing away from that sort of work quite a bit. Yes. The time at Saint Barnabas was a very important part of his life. Could you tell us a little bit about then? Well, of course, he came out at the invitation of Archbishop Merle to

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start a chaplain to the church, being students in Sydney University and also to make a student church of ST Barnabas, which he did. And we used to have streams of students coming out all the time and he started a once monthly student service and we used

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to pet some Barnabas with students from university and a lot of nurses as well from hospital and so on. And that one is still going on now. It's become quite an institution. And um so at that time, he did have a lot more contact with students.

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How long was he there? Seven years? And were you involved in that group? Was this small time? I couldn't travel? Of course, I had young Children. But um yes, the students who came to the house, numer cups of tea, et cetera. Were you always involved with

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him in the work that day or did he make it clear to you that he regarded as a team thing? Oh, I think so. Yes. Except when he was away on visions and then of course he was on his own. There's a lovely story in here

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which has been personally helpful to me that I put into practice. His daughter said to him on one occasion you have argued with mummy and that makes me upset and he said, did I? Well, you must help me not to do it and you must tell

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me what I'm doing cos I'm not always going to think. Oh, that's true enough. Yes. So I've done that myself and my daughter said the same thing to me use this in a positive way, dealing with the problem, almost positive attitude to laugh. Was he ever

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despondent at all? His voice g very often it was a real costume because they used to have a very fine bo um I think it lasted until the end of our time in England when he'd been in the, in the Air force. And then he'd been

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Oxford pastor chaplain. And then his voice was gradually there, maybe because he'd always used his voice so much and perhaps so strange, it, then it gradually got worse and worse. You won f two of us. And he said that to as you said it was a,

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a very big cost but that he, he found that he had to express himself in some way. And so he became much more involved in writing. Yes, that's true. Yes. And he was able to pass on his thoughts that way and he did that really? Right

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until the end of his life. Even though he's very ill. How many books of his, did you, how many books did you write? Oh, see if it was something sacrifice, which is still going after. I don't know how many years, 5060 years as well. The last

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enemy, which was about his experiences of getting cancer and looking to death. Number of small ones like, um, missionaries are a menace, which was a kind of skit. And another one about problem parents. Yes. Seekers, seekers and sacrifice. Sacrifice was the first one he ever wrote.

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And it was written when he was working first with students in about the 1930 I suppose. And, um, it was about the call of God Christ to young people and just what was involved and very straight. And I found a student. The story which is quite

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amazing and about, um, falling in love and money and all very practical things about being a Christian. Don't ask your water. You ever seen it? Yes, there was, there has been a lot of controversy going up there. Here's that, I'm not weird. No, I didn't think

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so. What I've always thought people have thought about is that it's a product of a definite holiness. Emphasis. Yes. And there are those who haven't always, I believe that or haven't been able to accept the law as being more. Whereas, no doubt that that was. Yes.

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Well, it was written by a young man who was very idealistic and I guess he might have change slightly as he grew older in some ways perhaps. Yes. I think it, it became a little dated in its, um, language in the, in the expression. But I

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don't think, I think basically the principles that he talked about in it were would he would still have held, um, expressed them? I think he would have coached them in, in terms that, that would have been understood by students and readers today. I don't know. I

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think that is what it is. He never expressed to you that you can it. No, no, I do that. Yeah. What, why is he the sort of person who never admitted that he was right. Not exactly, but he was such a positive person that he, he

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would feel, oh, God told me to write it like that and I did and that's it. You know what I have said? I have said, convinced was he about the importance of what he was doing? I'm still very, I'm sure. How convinced was he about the

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achievement when you read this? And you went through that first journey through Canada. Everywhere he went, he established a group which has lasted for a while. I mean, it really wasn't extraordinary. Yes, it was. And he came out to Australia and the same thing happened. But

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it was a very special time. Those years, uh, were very fruitful evangelistic years. I think it was just, you know, how some periods of time are like that. It was after the, between the two wars and people were looking for something. And I think he just

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came like, you know, Wesley and other people came just at the time when they were needed. And I think this happened and there were a number of other people who were able to back him up and had the same vision at the same time. Did Howard

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explain like that to you? Yes, we just thought he came at the right time. Did you ever comment to me about that? Yeah, obviously there must have been something about the man himself. I'm sure there was. Yes. Yes. Even when I was at a conferences in

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the early 19 seventies, he a lot of the students then knew of him and um and were highly regarded him extremely highly. Um And many of them, he was really quite revered in student circles, all masters not. And he was, he was greatly respected as a,

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as a, a strong and faithful evangelical Christian man who had done a very great work. How do you, how do you explain that the achievement. Why was it such a great one? My dear boy. Well, I, I mean, I don't, I didn't, I wasn't around when

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he, in, in the early days of his ministry, obviously. But, uh I think he, he was an unswerving person. I think he, he didn't compromise. He, he, he preached the gospel and, uh, and his one desire was that was that people should come to know Christ.

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And, um, and he presented Christ in a way that I felt was irresistible. Um And he, he, I, I think he had a gift in that regard which, and, and a magnetism, a Christ like magnetism that, that, that made people listen and, and think and question

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their own lives and, and where they were headed. Yes, he presented Christ, but he also made you, you said it again, that delightful did. Um It's a double barrel question I asked the first one first. Um was he the sort of person who needed to have

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intimate friends apart from, apart from the glass? I wouldn't say he needed it. No, no, he did have a lot of friends, but I think it was, no, I don't think he really needed it in that sense. Well, who were his friends? And I'm the evangelicals,

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Paul White, Alan Bryson, who else was in that first book, David Grant. Do you know the Grant family? Is it his son who's a rector? Uh uh uh just finished a curacy? No. David Grant's son is now headmaster of, of Shaw. David Grant was a dentist

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and he was in that group. Oh, he had lots of friends all over the world. But, um, I think he was pretty self sufficient in another sense he had, I think he had close friends um, that he shared with him in a specifically student. IVF. Yes,

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because he stayed with us when we were in Singapore. I think it was. And, and he also stayed with us in Melbourne. Well, then there was John Star. You see, he knew him very well. And Douglas Johnson, I remember the secretary of the, and all, lots

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of people as he went through the years, he collected friends all over the place. And, I mean, he didn't, he wasn't the sort of person who, um, who had another life. You know what I mean by that is that he, he was himself always, wasn't he?

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Yes. And what you saw was what he was and the sort of job that he carved out for himself, totally fulfilled his personality. It wasn't that he needed something else. I know. Now, was she a golfer friend? Yes. He was a great friend. Tell us more

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about these friendships. What they live to was he part of a team that were trying to do something with evangelicalism in Australia. He was always part of a team but he was usually the leader of it. Yeah, it's a great one. For teamwork. And he was

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also always very keen to, to delegate things, especially if he was working with young people. He always made them get to work and do things and he would stand aside and let them get on with it, you know. So he was a good leader from that

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point of view. What sort of a singing performer? Oh, poor. Oh, yes, he spoke. But no, it wasn't his company at all. No, he couldn't bear meetings and organizations and theological inhabit. You say he was a team man. But he worked in there. Most time for

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diocese instructors never made a push. 01. someone proposed to him in finance, but he brought his head off. Yes. Do you agree with that? Do you think you were not a, no, he would have been a bad bishop. It's too Irish. I didn't suffer for this

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and he didn't like, um, you didn't like the detail of, of um, of the hotel. Well, sometimes the point is, well, we're doing asking you questions. Yeah, I'm just interested. Uh It seems to me that he, he was a person who related very well in an

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intimate conversation uh, or as a speaker, as an evangelistic speaker. It mm Yes. This, this, this other area of um not wanting any administrative position that would be where the foolishness of others or the slowness or the lack of vision of others would have irritated him.

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Is that right? I mean, is that what you were saying? That's what came across to me. It's all right. That, that's what I mean, that was, I, I made the comment about, um, he, he didn't suffer from, um, no, I think if he wanted to do

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a thing he wouldn't let any kind of little things stand in its way, he just do it. And some people thought, oh, well, that he's, he was very impulsive and of course he was Irish and, um, that sometimes you ever make any mistakes? Oh, of course,

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don't we all? Well, I suppose a person who was very cautious, like Marcus, he wasn't cautious at all. I was notorious for making mistakes. No. No, not, not just the average, I think he, he was, um, I don't know whether I should have gone. Uh, we

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were washing the dishes one day together and, uh, I usually have driven up from Melbourne to see the glasses and, uh, he said to me, um, uh, how fast do you drive? So, II, I sort of had a feeling there was a bit of a lecture

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coming up. So I said, I'm about 100 and 20 and he said what? You don't? And I said, yes, I do. And he said, but why do you do it? And I said, because I love it. And he said, no, you don't, you do it because

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you're a promise me, you'll never do it again. And I said, No, I won't do that because I probably will. So you said, uh, so with that, he put down his tea towel and he walked out of the, the, the, the room slammed the kitchen door

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and went into his study, leaving me to finish the dishes. And, uh, I felt, uh, quite mortified after that. Thinking, what on earth have I said? And feeling terribly guilty about it. I thought, well, I, I sort of did a bit of heart fetching overnight over

00:32:00.790 - 00:32:16.010

that. And I thought perhaps I better better rethink that whole idea of driving up and how fast I would go. And, uh, perhaps I better apologize in the morning. And, uh, so the next morning I, I got up and he was just going up to get

00:32:16.020 - 00:32:32.550

the walk and I thought I'll catch him up. And I said, oh, look at that last night. No, no, no. He said, no, he said, don't apologize. He said I must apologize to you. He said I went into my room and I thought to myself, no,

00:32:32.560 - 00:32:50.560

he said, I went into my room and I did a bit of mathematics and I worked out that you weren't doing 85 miles from now. And he said, I thought to myself, whatever have I done to that poor girl, that poor poor girl? And then he

00:32:50.569 - 00:33:14.069

said, no, maybe you said, um, he said, even I break the speed limit, but I drive within the spirit of the law. That was a great, I could not see him doing this but that's what I meant about him being big enough to, to come down

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and, uh, I apologize but he was very impulsive. No, you don't, you do it because you're a fool. Yeah. Is it eccentric? No, I don't think he was. What do you mean quite like San? It's hard to define that. No, it was just himself. He was

00:33:37.359 - 00:34:13.189

straight as a die. What's playing now? Well, that's a private thing, isn't it? We used to pray together, of course. But, um, I'm sure he did a lot of it. Who is the main on boards and actors? Well, I suppose he was more of an activist

00:34:13.199 - 00:34:28.780

in a way, but I think he prayed all the time. If he was gardening or walking or whatever, he'd often be praying. But he wasn't the sort of person who found kneeling bras in his room. He was tuned in. Mm. Do you remember when he was

00:34:28.790 - 00:34:58.330

in hospital out of the day? And this is playing about the street? What? Yeah. Managed to get up enough to get it right here. I don't know, cos he didn't very often kneel at prayer. Really wasn't strong enough at the last. He must have felt something

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very important. What was Singapore all about Singapore was we went to, our family, went to Singapore in 1953. And um, we were in Singapore for seven years in Kuala Lumpur for five years. And during that time, my father and my mother was well or even his

00:35:28.909 - 00:36:03.239

father's name down, what do we do see me? But he's actually mentioned he was so um responsible in part for confirming the Ifese between Malaysia or Malay at that stage. Thank you. Time doc came over as a result of that administered to the students in that

00:36:03.250 - 00:36:36.370

context. And so mum and dad were very involved with the IP S in Southeast Asia, in particular. This was my, we look at you but we moved between Singapore and K so it would take us a few to settled into the country we living in those

00:36:36.379 - 00:36:59.040

sort of circles we must do. That's a lot of people with doctors. How do you call him doctor? No one else. I don't know. It was just uh it was, I think it was more of endearment. They obviously all honestly. H yes and a bar too.

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What do you think of Billy Graham? What do I think then? What did he think? 00, he had great admiration for it. Yes. We helped him all the missions when he came out and so on. Anything more than that? Was it, you know, in a special

00:37:23.439 - 00:37:48.459

world and organizing crusades? Think so. 59 was the first one, wasn't it? I don't know whether he was on any committees or he might have been, but he certainly was an advisor and we were there every night to three weeks. A great part in it. He

00:37:48.570 - 00:38:09.129

was a bar of the first result. No, we just come to ST Michael's for, did the first have an impact on the? Oh, very much so. Yes. A lot of people became questions there. Bible studies started that are still going very big. He wrote the thing

00:38:09.139 - 00:38:36.399

once called something at the Cross. The Plague. Yes. Um, what was it called? The witness, witness that was put on in the Broadway. Yes. That was during my time at ST Barnabas and the players belong several times. Yes. Yes, I think so. Yes. And it was

00:38:36.409 - 00:38:55.100

it there in play, right, man. Did you have any new television? He used to drop on radio quite a bit in a session with the Roman Catholic and the Free Church. But for several years, he used to answer questions in the midday program and he used

00:38:55.110 - 00:39:17.260

to preach a lot in other denominational churches for, tell us more about that. Oh, man. Well, how whole family were rarely into the nomination. So he only came into the church of England. You know, when he just before he was married, uh because he felt um

00:39:17.590 - 00:39:36.510

he got to have a place to do his work from earn some money to. So he wasn't a, a strict anglican in that sense. I was always very concerned about all the other denominations. I, I'm sorry, I didn't retain, not that I didn't read that what

00:39:37.010 - 00:40:01.949

was it? Well, it's hard to say because when he was young, I say his family was moving around from church to church. And, um, they're great friends of general booths and involved in many different groups of Christians. And I think sometimes they went to anglican churches

00:40:01.959 - 00:40:20.379

but they weren't denominational people really as a family. And when hard was working with students, of course, that was interdenominational all the time. So it wasn't until he, he was married and wanted to settle down a bit. But he went into checking. And it's interesting, this

00:40:20.389 - 00:40:41.100

question came up when I became a Christian because there was a group of nurses who were converted together and one or two of them were anglican and I had been, had some contact with the Presbyterian church and a few Presbyterians were converted. At the same time,

00:40:41.110 - 00:40:59.040

they asked his advice about where to go to church. And he said, just to make sure that the gospel was really preached, that he would always say is, um and one of my friends pressed him and said, should I go to the Presbyterian church in Wollongong?

00:41:00.050 - 00:41:15.229

And he looked at her quizzically and said, well, you have to make sure the gospel is preached. And the way he answered, I was present, the way he answered that question made me wonder in my mind whether he in fact thought that it would be better

00:41:15.239 - 00:41:55.149

for her not to go to the Presbyterian church but I wasn't going to ask you, you change. I change. Did he have warm friendships with, uh, leaders in other denominations where you do? Well, we had a minister's fraternal, usually in the area where we lived in.

00:41:55.169 - 00:42:12.580

Um, I don't know about war and friendships. He was certainly friendly towards the people. Um, got on very well with the forgotten, the Roman Catholic he used to speak with, on the radio but they got on very well. They used to spar with each other but

00:42:12.590 - 00:42:35.290

they were friends, you know. Um, he had a gift in Africa. Yes, man. Yes. What do you think of Tim knots? I think of. What did he think? I mean, you went a long way away from you. I don't think he ever had any contact with

00:42:35.300 - 00:42:49.649

him. He would have been very sad about a lot of his teaching, I'm sure. But maybe he felt that he was doing a good humanitarian job. I don't know whether that's, I think, I don't think we talked about it very much, but I would imagine that's

00:42:49.659 - 00:43:06.100

what he would have felt. What about Roger Bush? The Presbyterian? Uh, Matthews Chapel was always been away there again. I can't really tell you he wasn't one for criticizing people a lot unless he felt that they were really doing a bad thing to the cause of

00:43:06.110 - 00:43:24.459

the gospel. You know, he would have been down on theology if it wasn't accurate according to his beliefs. But, um, not to the person I think. But yeah, you weren't conscious of doing any raging nibbles, for example, whose name whenever they were mentioned he was our

00:43:24.830 - 00:43:42.290

food. Oh, well, he would have, um, no, I don't think he was a quarrelsome person in that way as I say he was for the truth. And he would have been very sad if he thought the truth wasn't in the breach. Was that right? Francis? And

00:43:42.300 - 00:44:10.709

the truth was a simple truth. The day sounds perfect. You study your Bible much. Oh, great dear. And did the, did his preaching change over time and preach that through books in all sorts of ways. He was always very young, very down to earth in his

00:44:10.719 - 00:44:30.929

preaching, caught your attention and brought down to everyday things. But he didn't know his Bible extremely well. He always preached from the Bible and was expository preaching way. Do you think or did you choose a topic and talk about that? Sometimes one, sometimes the other. He

00:44:30.939 - 00:44:46.820

used to take a whole book but very often with students, he'd take a book for instance, at Sydney University, he did a whole course on Hebrews and then he did Romans another time and uh with students, he, he'd do more expository treatment preaching. But with a

00:44:46.830 - 00:45:01.590

congregation, he'd probably be more simple in the way he approached things as a world. Did you express any frustration that the eu wasn't shaping up in a way that you would like to Marcus way mentioned to us that we thought the were fairly anti. Oh, I

00:45:01.600 - 00:45:23.489

think it did. Yes. Yes. I think he was disappointed me in, at times very, no reason. I think their lack of enthusiasm about the gospel more than anything else and their lack of love to other people. Sometimes they get very ingrown, don't they? And, um, I

00:45:23.510 - 00:45:53.919

think he was sad about that. There's an element of sloppiness too which I think lack of conviction perhaps. Yes. So the thing that really upset him was inadequate commitment. Yes, I get readiness to sacrifice. This came on second class for the second possible. Yes, I think

00:45:53.929 - 00:46:20.580

so. What about his work with Scripture Union? Crusaders, private schools, I'm sure. And it was much more separate in those days. But he would have spoken at inc if he was, if he was asked scripture union, you see you? I thought that used it directly connect

00:46:20.590 - 00:46:36.719

to the machine. He would always go along with anything like that. And he was asked to do according to this book, his strategy was that he wanted to encourage his genes from, he wanted, he wanted to build up Christians in schools so that when they went

00:46:36.729 - 00:46:50.860

on to university, there would be a group of Christians there that you would do something with. So I think one of the first things he did was to establish a camp here for us to get wanted to eat, I'd be gay from church schools rather than

00:46:50.879 - 00:47:14.949

private schools. You mean more than the government schools? Yes. Was you prior to the private school? Yes. He was an English public school and I think he felt he was called to that. Plus if you like, there was more at home with the upper middle class

00:47:14.959 - 00:47:40.939

kind of people and I think he's already had the ministry to them. You say that is normally, has done a lot better with that class? The same about, I don't know very much about it as a whole, but I think the whole Anglican church is inclined

00:47:40.959 - 00:48:20.949

to the middle class, isn't it? Unfortunately, is there any other areas that you knowledge? Did you work with Doctor Guinness in any? No, try to support business and experiences of human. A few families. It's really important to stand out, which is really nice for that. Um,

00:48:26.110 - 00:48:53.379

I always found him to be a very relevant person, someone that you could, you could raise a topic with and that he would talk about it with you in a very helpful way in a way that would give you something to go on with. Um, personally,

00:48:53.389 - 00:49:18.629

II, I think I found him a very reassuring person. I think probably because he was um, such a, he was, he was so conscious of his own own shortcomings and things that he didn't, he didn't ever make it um difficult. It, it was always, um, he,

00:49:18.639 - 00:49:41.419

he he could, he would identify, he would be like John Stott in a way he was one of us. Um, and I think that was part of his greatness as far as I was concerned was that he, he related so easily and, and identified so quickly

00:49:42.070 - 00:50:13.580

with another person's way, you see, but was quick to, to put the truth of the gospel that there was strength available through Christ and forgiveness. No, it needed. And um and that it was an ongoing thing that, that, I don't know, I think probably the most,

00:50:15.159 - 00:50:46.719

the most precious time and he had his at the time. But I don't know whether Barbara would, would uh happy about me saying anything about the two weeks that I, when he died just before he died. July 29th, 79 I came up from Melbourne and I

00:50:46.820 - 00:51:12.610

spent the last two weeks here and Barbara and I took it in turns each day to visit and sit with him. And uh when I first saw him and you will, Barbara, if you don't, if you'd rather I didn't, I won't go, go ahead when I

00:51:12.620 - 00:51:39.129

first saw him two weeks before he died. I, I got a, a terrific shock because I, I hadn't expected him to be as frail and as, and this is looking to see who was in K yes, that he, he always had the same twinkle, he never

00:51:39.139 - 00:52:04.219

lost his, he never lost the spirit even though he was really ravaged by the cancer. He, he never lost his son, his energy, his spiritual energy. I just remembering one very personal incident where I mentioned to him that I was going out with a fellow and

00:52:04.429 - 00:52:23.040

his eyes just threw into saucers and, and twinkled away and, uh, he was all ready to hear all about it and it was really, it was, it was lovely. I mean, here he was so, so terribly sick and, and yet he wanted all the news. Thank

00:52:23.050 - 00:52:48.500

you very much. And, um, hi, I remember too that when we, um, sometimes I, I would be there during meal time and, um, but I learned a tremendous amount in that time because about being with those who are very sick and dying. And, um, I learned

00:52:48.510 - 00:53:12.379

an enormous amount about the dignity that can, can be there even in such a, a difficult situation. But when, when he ate, he, he, he found it very difficult to hold anything very steady. And so there'd be some spills and I tried to help him at

00:53:12.389 - 00:53:31.290

one stage and we had a running battle and, uh, and II, I thought I was being a help and, uh, finally managed to successfully spill the soup down his pajamas. And he looked at me with this fearsome look and said, there, now, look what you've done.

00:53:35.060 - 00:53:51.080

Yes. I met a nurse the other day who was with him in his last few days and she was telling me a few stories and said he was a gentleman. To the last is typical. He was, but he, uh, what I learned through that was that

00:53:51.090 - 00:54:08.969

he, he was, he did let me eventually help him with his meals, but in his time, not mine and, and I had to wait for that time to come. And of course I left off after that until he, he said, ok, you can help now. Um,

00:54:09.830 - 00:54:27.340

but I, one day I was sitting with him in the dark and we were just sitting quietly, I reckon I must have been knitting or something. And uh suddenly he throw back the bed covers and he said, I've had enough of this. He said, I'm going

00:54:27.350 - 00:54:43.729

to have some fun. Have you? He went charging down to the end of his bed and I said, I said, look, I think you better get back, you better move back into bed. Don't fight me. He said I won't, I never could anyway. So I'll go

00:54:43.739 - 00:55:03.629

and get the sister. So I went and got the system and I think, I think he was really champing at the bit, but that, that was what I meant that he never lost that spirit. And, um, and in a way, he, he showed me something about

00:55:03.639 - 00:55:31.899

the dignity of death and, but he also showed me a tremendous amount about how did I? And I remember on the, on the last day he died, four o'clock on Saturday morning, I saw him at four o'clock on the Friday afternoon. He, the sister said to

00:55:31.909 - 00:55:49.830

me, he doesn't look too good today. Fences. And I said, well, can I still go in? And she said yes. And I went in and, and he was in a coma at that stage and I did get a shock and, uh, I, I looked out of

00:55:49.840 - 00:56:10.739

the window, I had for a moment momentarily. I had to look away and I looked out of the window out of this beautiful view of the blue mountains and, and as I looked, I just thought I had this vision of a tall, strong, healthy, handsome man

00:56:11.469 - 00:56:26.570

going to meet his Lord. And I, I just, and that was the, the, the picture that stayed with me. And after that I, I moved, I went back and I sat with him, I just, I just held his hand and uh and he smiled, he really

00:56:26.580 - 00:56:46.510

smiled, he didn't open his eyes, but he smiled. And um, and all that time that I sat with him, there was that picture of him as tall and healthy and strong and rosy cheeked. And um, and that this is, this is what was going to be,

00:56:46.520 - 00:57:06.310

this was what was in store. And um, I mean, that's, I, I know that that's, I suppose that was my way of coming off. I don't, but um it was like, it was like walking to the gate. Of heaven and, and saying, seeing him through it,

00:57:06.320 - 00:57:32.510

but not, but not being able to go through yet myself. It was, it was an incredible experience. Yes. He, yeah, it was a very special time, isn't it? And in, in the midst all the horror of the, of the cancer and the pain and he was

00:57:32.520 - 00:58:00.699

in terrible agony, terrible pain. There was, there was that joy. He, there was no question about where he was going. And, uh, and he didn't mind going either. Do you know that? You know, don't, don't decided. He said there was a spirit there. Yes. But he

00:58:00.709 - 00:58:22.179

didn't fight upstairs. I think he just loved life, didn't he? And while he wanted to, he wanted to meet his Lord. He, at the same time, he, I wouldn't have minded a little bit longer too. Have a bit of fun. He was depressed after the last

00:58:22.199 - 00:58:39.489

year. Yes. He knew he was dying. The doctor told him last year he was dying a year before he. Yes, pretty well. Yes. In that two weeks. Did you feel he was well? You know, he didn't talk very much to me. He talked much more of

00:58:39.500 - 00:58:54.580

you strangely enough, did he? I used to sit with him but he was um, usually very quiet when Marcus learn, went to see him strangely. Now he said something about the gates of heaven. He said, if anybody knows he's going through the gates, it must be

00:58:54.590 - 00:59:23.030

you hard. Now I said yes. And he was so convinced that he was going and, and do Marcus name was the last time if you, was he, what was the question? Did he have? Joy? And Doc came back with Joanne. Oh, dear. Well, what about a

00:59:23.040 - 00:59:25.330

cup of tea? Would that be a good idea?