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Record of an interview with made with bishop and Mrs Alfred Stanway by Margaret Lamb on the 19th of March 1987. I was very interested Mrs Chambers. If you could tell me about the influence of the C MS League of Youth in the development of the evangelical

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presence here in Melbourne. It's funny you call me Mrs Chambers. I'm sorry, let's go. Well, I just want to be able to tell you what I've heard from my husband and that was when he was a member of the League of Youth. They began to work

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a great deal in among the young people in the area in which they lived. So they weren't only Anglicans. Um And they joined together in missions now and again, among other young people and the Presbyterians from the same area, joined with them in missions to young

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people in parishes or in churches or um, meetings conventions. Is that right? And, uh, in that way, they, there was a fairly strong link also later on when ALF was first ordained, he went to Saint Albans, ST Albans and Saint John's Deer Park and they ran

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a joint um, meeting of young people with those from the Anglican church and with the Christian endeavor. Is that right? Hm. Yeah. Uh, actually, when ALF arrived at that situation in ST Albans and deer park, there was a joint Presbyterian Anglican young people's meeting and it

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developed quite a lot when you were there. Isn't that right? And in that way, actually, the, one of the interesting things to us is that one of the ladies who girls as she was then we still have some touch with now, after all those years, and

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she has remained a very keen Christian. And um she often refers back to these days when they had this kind of joint relationship with the Anglicans Presbyterians. Well, at least as these people tended to be involved in things like youth for Christ, um especially during the

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war years and uh any big uh meeting in Melbourne, which involved an evangel or type of witness they would take their share with. And I remember actually, now this is coming back to more recent times that Cliff Richard came out and had a meeting at the

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festival hall and the people from Ridley, the Anglican flocks and whatnot from Ridley. They went across and helped with this. What was the major denomination affair involving Cliff Richard and, and David mcinnes who was an Anglican who traveled with him, clergyman. So they were still uh

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active in. Um And many of the people of those r boys had been link abused so they were active in that type of ministry. Always, I think. Tell me about Mr Nash, please. Ah, well, now Mr Nash was, um, a wonderful person and very, very well

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known in evangelical circles in Melbourne, a great convention speaker, a very fine preacher and able to speak to all kinds of, um, ranks of age and what not. And, um, he used to conduct Bible readings for league of youth members on a Friday evening and, or

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we, we met in a crypt down in Saint Paul's and the room was always filled, wasn't it? Uh We nearly always had a, a kind of picnic tea before we went into the meeting because people would come straight from work and then he would um go

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straight into the Bible study. And uh in that way, we, and we got a wonderful ministry from him, which was continuous. He was building us up in Bible knowledge and in Christian principles. There's another story. I don't know whether Ralph would like me to tell. Would

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you like to tell about the coat, Mr Nash and the Coat? I'll give you two stories to show Mr insight. He had tremendous insight. And as, as I mentioned earlier to you, um he would always be topical, giving little topical remarks and uh illustrating uh scripture

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point. And um on one occasion, ALF was a young curate out at Saint Albans and he was on his way to uh to go to the city men's Bible class, which Mr Nash also conducted in the city. And, uh, he was going past a shop in

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Elizabeth Street which was called Fred Hesse. You wouldn't know it now. But people of our time, Fred Hesse was a, uh, a shop where he bargained sort of men's clothing. And, um, this particular morning he had a window full of overcoats. Everybody wore overcoats in those

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days and it had, uh, nothing over 30 bulbs or nothing over 30 shillings, they called it Bobs, you know, kind of talk. And, uh, a sort of had a quick look at it. He really needed an overcoat. He hadn't long been working in the parish, but

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his inner conscience told him that he really wasn't to spend any money now on a coat and he was going to turn away and the man was there at the door and he said, uh, coat, sir. And ALF said, no, sir. Ok. He said, why not?

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And he said, oh, well, you won't have the kind I want. He said, well, what kind do you want? And he began to describe it and he said, well, come right in, we've got that, you see. And so he ended up by selling him this coat

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for 30 odd. Well, I felt quite pleased with himself and he put the coat on and went off to his Bible class. And, uh, at the beginning of the class, he, you know, bowed his head and started to pray and he felt he wasn't getting anywhere

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that his prayer wasn't, you know, going anywhere. And so he began to ask himself, well, what is it, Lord? And the only thing he could think about was this coat. So he prayed and he said, Lord, if, if it is the coat you show me. And

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so he got a little piece then, and he settled in for the study and Mr Nash went on taking the study and he was talking about Judas and in the course of his talking about Judas, he said Judas sold his Lord for a 30 bob bargain.

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I'd rather go without a top coat than deny my Lord. So you can see how God could work through a person like that, that he he would give just the thing that would touch your heart and you'd know Jolly. Well, that God was speaking through him

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to you and did Mr Nash know about the coat? I don't know. Where did you tell him later on? No, he doesn't think he ever told. And the coat never did any good because a dog jumped up on it soon afterwards and tore it. And uh

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and then I think it was stolen finally. Wasn't it? Never did him any good? Yes. Never gone to Africa. Never got anywhere. It was, it was AAA legitimate thing, but it wasn't the right time to get the other thing I was going to tell you about

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was, um, oh, there was another instance, oh, when we were home on leave once from Africa, Mr Nash was taking, uh, was to take a service at Rosanna, uh, on a Sunday morning and ALF had, was free that Sunday morning. So he thought I'll go along

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and hear Mr Nash preach. But before then he got a telephone call from Mr Nash. And he, he said, what are you doing on Sunday, Alfred? And he said, I'm coming to Rosanna to hear you preach. And he said, oh, now that's why I want to

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talk to you. He said now, so and so is sick and I have to go at a moment's notice to take his service. And I was wondering if you would come and preach in my place so that it was amazing, this kind of thing happened all

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the time in Mr Nash's life. And of course, it touched us things and he, he would just be dealing with the gospels translating from the Greek, straight from the Greek New Testament and something topical would come up and you get it, it might be something that

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happened this day or well, one day when he was giving the talks, he was talking to a group of young people and he said, um, now, um he was speaking to a girl and he found out that she was going to uh way to be a

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nurse and in a country place and she said, oh, Mr Nash, I don't know how to witness. Oh, he said it's quite easy. He said, are you going up by train? And she said, yes. Well, he said you'll get into the train and he said, after

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a while a lady will get in the little baby and she'll be struggling to open the window and you'll say, may I help you? And you'll get up and open the window for her and then she'll ask you where you're going and you'll tell her I'm

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going with so and so, and what, why are you going me? I'm going to be a nurse. And do you like that? And yes, and then before you know where you are, you know, where you are, you'll be witnessing. Well, the interesting thing was this all

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happened, the girl got into the train and then came the lady with the baby and, and she found that she could speak to her. So she told Mr Nash afterwards, she said it happened exactly like you said, isn't that interesting? So he, he, he had that

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particular rather prophetic type of ministry in Melbourne. So he was a great uh a great blessing to the league of youth because most of us who were, there had several years of his teaching and it was like nobody else's teaching. You know, we, we never got

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that sort of teaching from anywhere else. Some of some of the outreach that Mr Nash had when he was ministering in Melbourne. Um were things like the city men's Bible class, which was a weekly Bible class meeting in Griffiths brother. Yes. Yes, that's right. Um The

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scripture union was also became very active and ALF just mentioned there that he was the speaker at the first squash as they used to call him in those days, the first squash her, which was in one of the rooms attached to the Baptist Church in Con

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Street. And as well as outreach that Mr Nash had uh touched the Presbyterian youth for whom he used to speak uh the league of youth, of course, the church missionary society and Christian endeavor and all these bodies of young people were constantly asking him to uh

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um speak for them, take special meetings, take Bible studies and so on. And then of course, I mentioned earlier that um my husband was converted through Mr Nash. He was a young man and his church was uh Saint Paul's Pir Fairfield. And uh he was a

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member of the scout team there, which incidentally was the scoutmaster was later to become Archbishop Booth. He was his scoutmaster and Mr Mace was the clergyman in those days and he had, he had a good preaching and teaching ministry and one day he had Mr Nash

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as a special preacher um at his church and he was preaching on uh don't fear those who can hurt the body, but fear those that have the power to cast your soul into hell. And as well as the exposition of this passage, while ALF was listening,

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he felt God was speaking to him. He'd made the decision there in his heart to commit his way to, to Christ. And before they, Mr Nash finished, he said, now I want those of you who are Christians to pray for those who are not Christians. And

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after he knew in that mutant moment that he, he could now call himself a Christian and pray for those who weren't. So that was the uh really the beginning of his commitment to the Lord through Mr Nash. So of course, you can see how his whole

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ministry had been deep and meaningful. There's another lovely story you might like to know. When was it not concerning Mr Nash this time? That's fine. Al was at the Fairfield Church there and the, this group of young Presbyterians and the League of Youth uh were very,

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very keen on revival in Fairfield and God was sending them big numbers of people. They'd have youth meetings and crowds would come and they decided to ask Mr Bham to speak. You've heard of Fw Boreham, have you? Yes. But I know very little about him, great

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baptist preacher and he's written lots and lots of books which probably would be old fashioned now, but they'd still be very readable. We've got quite a number here. Mhm. Two more. Alright. Well, Mr Bham uh was the um baptist preacher, he was an Englishman. He'd come

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out to Australia and New Zealand and had ministered uh with great acceptance in both places. And he was a regular speaker at a, a midday meeting in the city and the young people in Fairfield Presbyterians and Anglicans who were really feeling God was having a renewal

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in the, in the church at that time, decided to organize a really big meeting and get Fw Bham to come and speak to them. And they told him before that they would like him to make an appeal for people to give themselves to Christ. And he

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said, well, I've never made an appeal in my life. And they said, oh, we're praying about it. You, you make the appeal. And uh so he decided he would and he gave a very uh a splendid address. And at the end of it, he made an

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appeal for decisions and a whole number of people stood up. Now that night, he was going off to preach in a, it was a Sunday. He was going, it was a Sunday afternoon and lead to a place. But in the evening, he was going off to

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preach at a church somewhere else. And he thought, what a fool I am all these years. And I've never made an appeal and he thought he would make an appeal. So he did not a sultan stood up, not a soul. The thing was that this had

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been followed by prayer that the meeting of the young people had prayed for weeks and weeks and weeks for Doctor Bham and for this message and that young people would stand for Christ and so forth. And yeah, right now, um soon afterwards, of course, he was

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involved with the young people in the parish at Fairfield. And they, and the young people at Alphington wanted to have an attack on the unconverted youth in their, in their churches and in the area around about and they asked the ministers of the churches to help

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uh to help them in reaching out to these unconverted people. And they formed a committee uh to oversee this uh outreach. But the the minister, the minister said yes, but the arrangements were they oversee the arrangements, but they really never caught up with the pace of

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the young people, young people went too fast, but much faster than the ministers and they were approving things after they'd already happened. So now for a period of six weeks, the young people held uh m meetings regularly and there was not a meeting without some converts.

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It was just, it was amazing. It was like a miniature revival, wasn't it? Then? At what time would that have been? 19 thirties, early 19 thirties was it or the end of 2028 29 P with? Mhm. It was the yes, that was about 1932 when this

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was happening. And at the same time, uh the Christian endeavor, which met mainly mainly in the Presbyterian and Methodist churches. Uh They were branching out and there was a, a youth Presbyterian youth work under a Mr Jamieson, which was uh highly um uh uh successful in

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reaching out to the young people. Apparently. Um While Mr Jamieson was doing such effective work, the Presbyterians were able to get several 100 boys at an Easter camp, which was, well, it did seem to be um something, you know, great movement among young people. A has

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just mentioned that uh uh after he had been to an uh an Anglican uh youth camp, he went straight on to a Presbyterian one where he was warmly welcomed. And these groups of young people invited one another to take um evangelistic meetings in different places and

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with, with good effect, I should have mentioned that the these young people's meetings that are referred to were at Easter Doors and the following and then followed on from there. Well, these people too used to have prayer meetings and uh the Anglicans especially prayed for Ridley

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College and Moore College asking that they would get people to minister in the colleges who were evangelicals. And round about this time, the vice principal of Moore College resigned and the principal was dying. And so the college was under uh Archbishop Howard Moles um oversight and,

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and he then appointed TC Hammond to be the principal and that was the beginning of a, a time of great blessing in a college, I think probably, um, it, it might be good. Uh, you asked me about my conversion, which is through league of youth. And

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then I thought we could perhaps say, have a league of youth branched out. Yes, please. Yes. Well, um, I was interested in a missionary who was going out with the CIM who was working at our church in the Sunday school. And uh I had been for

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a long time seeking for something I didn't quite know what I was seeking for, but it was obviously a deeper experience. And during a June um Queens King's birthday weekend, the league of Youth had organized a launch trip up the Yarra and we were going to

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go up the Yarra in the launch, uh get out somewhere near Studley Park and walk across to Saint Hillary's Q have a, a basket lunch. And then we were to have an address by Mr Crawshaw, who at that time was the minister permission to let us.

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And then there was going to be another evening meeting after which we'd all take our different ways home. So I went along on this uh picnic and it was the first time I'd ever been with a big group of like of these people. I'd met two

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or three of them in our own parish and I felt the atmosphere of singing uh choruses and things very helpful and cheerful. And when we got to Saint Hilary's the afternoon meeting. I sat with this, um, friend of mine who was going out as a CIA

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missionary and Mr Crawshaw preached. Now he preached on the text. The Love of Christ constrains me. But he, he, he used the translation I think was moffatts which said the Love of Christ as masters me. And, uh, I can't remember any more than the text of

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what he said, except that when he was speaking, I had a very clear view in my mind's eye of our Lord on the cross. And at the close of the address, he didn't make any appeal. But at the close of the address, he asked us all

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to sing um was about the cross. Now, when I survey the wondrous cross and he asked us to change that last line instead of demands my soul, my life, my all to say, shall have my soul, my life, my all. And I remember that I could,

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I really sort of uh could say that and I was a little bit overcome and this friend who was with me realized something had happened. So she took me off privately and we talked about it and had some pray together. And that was my beginning of

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experience with legal youth. And of course, then I joined up with them and they had a just before you go on, would you say that a number of young people were converted through that ministry through this kind of ministry. I don't know anybody else on that

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particular day, but that's how most of us were gathered in, through this was what I was going to say. Their outreach was these regular rallies and uh they would uh take a big uh van really and put seats in it and we'd go off to country

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areas and we'd have a meeting in Bendigo or a meeting in wood end or a meeting in um kind somewhere like that places where they'd never had this kind of meeting and witness and we'd get, always do it through the local church, but it would be

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for the young people and it would normally be on a Saturday or a holiday, uh Monday holiday, Monday or something like that. And there were regular conversions all the way along uh at these meetings. And uh the thrust was always an evangelical thrust. Always, it was

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always uh the message was sometimes it would be a missionary home on Phil, but quite often it would be uh a noted evangelical preacher and, and he would be told, you know, we're out for commitment, we're out for young people, gathering young people in and then

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you would be asked to join up with the league of Youth and they'd link you up with the Bible class and you'd come under Mr Nash. And uh we started little branches in country areas, branches in Geelong. We had a league of youth branch in Geelong

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and in some of the other country areas, Gippsland. I don't think we had a branch in Gippsland. Do you remember one there? I don't think so, but I do remember Geelong and going to these other places you mentioned earlier. And I'm not sure if it's on

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the tape that your husband regarded this as a miniature revival among young people. That's right to, to my way of thinking um from my own experience that almost everywhere we went in the, in the churches, there were groups of people in our, our same sort of

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age group who were really committed to the gospel. And we had a library in League of youth and it was mostly missionary biography and missionary literature. And we used to take our new book almost every week, all the Hudson Taylor books and any books written on

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missionary work. And uh John and Betty, yes, John Bett was another one and we, we were really sort of um reading as fast as we could about what was happening out in the world, you know, outside and in, in the uh unel places there was this

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thrust. Um uh Most of these movements among the young people seem to be happening during the depression years from back 1928 right through the early thirties. And um do you think it was a uh affected by the um difficult circumstances? The uh the lack of other

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things? I don't know it didn't seem to be, it didn't seem to have any connection with anything else outside of spirituality. You know what I mean? Uh We were all, um, in a sense poor. We didn't have motor car to around and uh we went to

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meetings, we went by train, we went by public transport. We took big buses for our not buses really. They were more like furniture vans with seats in them to go off on our rallies. Yes. And uh uh there was no sort of feeling that we were

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really poor, but we'd all been brought up to be very careful with money in those days. Yes. And uh um those who were going into missionary training had to really think hard. Now my husband wanted to go to be a missionary and, and perhaps it would

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be interesting to, he was a young man at this time and he was working in a publishing company as an accountant. He'd done his accountancy work at night and he'd gone into this publishing business and uh he felt God was calling him and he, because he

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was with the C MS League of Youth, he went to the C MS meetings in the church and they had a missionary from Uganda. Is that right? Dean speaking Tom Lawrence. Was it? No, it wasn't. It was Mr Long. The they had the, it was the

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C MS secretary speaking at a church and it was a Latin lecture. The old fashioned time and it was Africa calling. Isn't that right dear? And there were, oh, perhaps half a dozen ladies there. Is that right? And Elf, were there any other young men there?

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One or two, perhaps. Yes, it was, it was a very, very small night, a cold night, you know, and he was Mr Long showing this light and while ALF was at that meeting, God spoke to him and said, you know, I want you for Africa and

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he felt so uncomfortable. He got up and he went off and sat in another place because he didn't know that he was so overcome. And that was the beginning. He, he was absolutely certain as you can be the God of Syd, you, I want you for

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Africa. And so then he began to think what he ought to do about it. So he spoke to the C MS people personnel and they said they thought he ought to train for the ministry. So he, and in those days it was three year training and,

00:27:15.760 - 00:27:34.479

uh, he saved a little bit of money but it, it was depression time. She went to college. 31 didn't you? In 1931? Was it 32? 31 or 32? That was terribly, yes. 32. And, uh, he, he saved a little money and he reckoned if he was

00:27:34.489 - 00:27:47.949

very, very careful, he might get through the first two years. But he had three years and he would have to absolutely trust God for the money. And, um, uh, he went to his employer to give notice that he was going to go into a college. And

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he, this man did the best he could, uh, to keep him with the firm and said, we'll give you a promotion, you know, and your salary will be increased and so on. And Charles said, no, he felt that he had to do this, that God was

00:28:00.439 - 00:28:15.989

calling him. And afterwards he said, well, I'm glad you're like that. And I'd be proud if it was, my son felt like that, you know, he did his best to keep him. But then he encouraged him to go ahead. Was he a Christian? Was he TC

00:28:16.000 - 00:28:42.150

Austin? No, it wasn't. TC Austin was have it. Ok. Uh And he, um again and again, all that time that he was in Ridley and God supplied his needs without other people knowing that he needed them. You know, sometimes he said your shoes would get very

00:28:42.160 - 00:28:57.300

thin. You really wouldn't have the money to have them sold, but he'd have a birthday and his sister would perhaps send him money instead of prison saying I, I didn't know what to get for. You get something, you know, and everything happened just like that. And

00:28:57.310 - 00:29:16.369

uh he had to trust God all the way through, um which was a tremendous preparation for the ministry because if you could trust God in all those circumstances, you knew who could trust him for other things. The very last day of college, he still owed a

00:29:16.380 - 00:29:31.959

burst of five pounds and he'd been praying about it a lot and, and he didn't have the five pounds and he waited for the mail that morning and then nothing came in. So he thought I'll have to go and tell the principal. I, I just don't

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have the five pounds, but I'll pay it the first salary that I'll get when I go into the parish. So he went up the stairs rather sadly. And when he knocked at the door, the principal said, come in and he said, oh, I'm glad to see

00:29:46.310 - 00:30:03.689

you Stanley. He said, we've just had the examination results. And in those days, if you had an award for an examination, they gave you a money prize which you could buy your own books that you wanted. Something like that. And this particular subject was Comparative Religion,

00:30:03.699 - 00:30:24.609

I think, wasn't it? And, uh, the prize was, the first prize was five pounds. The second was two. well, the principal said, um, you, you have topped this examination and now felt in his heart, ah, there's three pounds and then he went on to say, but

00:30:24.619 - 00:30:37.719

there was a very big gap between the next person and the committee thought probably we ought to award you the five pounds. Now, he said, what, what should I do with it? And I said, oh, please give it to the bursar. I owe the college five.

00:30:39.180 - 00:30:58.939

So it was, it was just a lovely to see it on that. You know, I've seen you all through college. Don't have any worries. You were going to ask me something else then. No. Well, that was, that was great. Just coming back, you had mentioned RCM.

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Long. Did you know him? Well, he went to Michael's W and we knew his Children, of course, the daughter and uh but then they moved away from Melbourne and we went off to Africa. So we, you know, there was a big gap when we didn't see

00:31:18.275 - 00:31:36.829

people. Was he an important man in Melbourne or very well respected? Wasn't he dear? Very well respected? I don't know how important he would be. I will be in a position to judge in those days. He was senior Abbott who has been very helpful to me

00:31:37.219 - 00:31:57.949

was converted under a long at ST Michael. And he has a great respect for a very nice person and a good teacher. Oh, very nice person to have any dealings with at all. We, we enjoyed any of our association with. Well, are there any other things?

00:31:57.959 - 00:32:14.329

I mean, I know you must have a lot of stories. Are there any other things that are important you want to talk about your time in? Is there something we haven't said there or the IVF we talked about? Um, would you like to talk briefly? About

00:32:14.339 - 00:32:37.400

your time in Tanganyika of East Africa, East Africa. Yes, all we could, I could give you a bit of an outline. ALF went to Kenya in 1937. Now, that was very, very interesting because when he made an offer to C MS, he offered for Africa and,

00:32:37.410 - 00:32:54.660

uh, someone got it wrong and wrote down Tanka as it was in those days and, uh went away and then he thought, no, my offer wasn't specifically Tangana, it was Africa generally. So he went back and said, no, he wanted to have that altered to Africa

00:32:55.540 - 00:33:17.839

and then came the call for him to go to Kenya. Uh they were needing somebody for a school off the coast and uh, and he had done this teacher training. And so he set out for Kenya in January 1937 and was uh at the coast of

00:33:17.849 - 00:33:36.579

Kenya, which is very, very hot. And although he was in, at a boys' boarding school, Diocese and boys boarding school, he was often called out into the uh little churches round about to help them to supervise and to give advice and so forth. And that was

00:33:36.589 - 00:33:55.760

good because he was learning the language and it was, you know, helpful. Uh then, uh during the war years, um the Italians were on the border of um of the Kenya border in Ethiopia. So it was a war zone and he was able to do a

00:33:55.770 - 00:34:16.708

little bit of work with the uh as a chaplain to some of the people, um British people in coming down from the coast from time to time. And uh when we went, we came home on leave in, during the war in 1941 and went back early

00:34:16.718 - 00:34:35.059

42. And at this time, he was principal of the school because the Englishman who was the principal had been ill and gone home. But the bishop at this time was wanting out for purely pastoral work. And so he asked the committees to release him for work

00:34:35.069 - 00:34:57.600

for um purely pastoral work, which meant that we had to be supported from funds outside of the government and where it wasn't uh school work specifically. So um we, we, the English C MS at this stage um had us on their lists and uh he went,

00:34:57.610 - 00:35:15.530

we went up to Konda country on the equator and while he was there, he was ruled in of about 500 churches or something. Was it there or more? I don't think I'm understating rather than overstating. Hm I'm gonna send, is there now about three or four

00:35:15.540 - 00:35:38.280

dioceses? Is the area that he was rural dean of? And did you have Australian support or British? Not at the early, we didn't get Australian support until after 47 1947. Is it right there when we came, when we came home on the, we were supported by

00:35:38.290 - 00:35:53.810

England up until we came home and leave in 1947 then the Australian C MS began to support us fully. And uh at one stage, they wanted ALF to go down to Tanganyika cos our main missionary work was down there. But the, the bishop of Central Tanganyika,

00:35:54.050 - 00:36:16.250

that time bishop chambers and our bish and uh our bishop, Bishop Crab uh got together. But our bishop said, don't you take Stanway? But um he uh we uh were appointed to Nairobi when we went back then. And ALF was the secretary of the education board,

00:36:16.260 - 00:36:34.939

which was caring for all the D OS and school work for the whole of Kenya. Really. And a little later that year, he was made archdeacon with one other man who were made archdeacons for the whole work of uh in Africa. And he was asked to

00:36:34.949 - 00:36:50.965

look after particularly the African side of the work. This was not because it was a racist thing, but it was a language thing. And the, the churches for the expatriates had services in English, whereas the churches for the African in either in the vernacular or in

00:36:51.074 - 00:37:12.360

quali. So in that way, um ALF had the oversight of all the churches where they had the vernacular and Swahili speaking services and occasionally uh took services and what not in the English speaking churches. And he, he um that, that was a, a tremendous administrative uh

00:37:12.370 - 00:37:31.123

uh situation. And also during that time, he, he helped with the constitution for the church in Kenya under the art which gave him a great insight on the constitution would be very important, very important. And that changed. Oh, I don't think so. Has it? I think

00:37:31.133 - 00:37:47.343

they stick to their constitution. You see, one of the things was that the church decided um or the, the mission, it was decided that the mission mustn't own property, which is the church that it had to be belong to the African church. So there are a

00:37:47.353 - 00:38:02.706

lot of legal documents and things that had to be um worked out and work through and all this was invaluable because later on when ALF went down to Tanganyika, he had to see the constitution through there and he'd been through all the thing in Kenya. So

00:38:02.716 - 00:38:22.320

it was a tremendous help and also all the legal documents making sure that the land was held by the local church and not by any missionary body or anything like that. And uh uh the Kenya experience was, was wonderful really. And he had lots of um

00:38:22.620 - 00:38:42.080

opportunities there for conventions. And of course, while we were there, the uh revival movement had broken out and that was uh uh touching the church at every point. You know, there's a rapid growth in church growth in, in the country. And uh we went down to

00:38:43.159 - 00:39:03.979

TKA in 19 beginning of 1951 when ALF was appointed as the new bishop there. And uh we spent 20 years in Dodoma, which was the center of the sea center of, of Tanzania. Tan Tanzania, it became later. And um that was a tremendous experience sort of

00:39:05.169 - 00:39:28.370

because he'd had a lot of administrative experience, which was most useful in getting the church through this period of getting the constitution fixed and trying to teach the African about Africans about central church funds, how to raise the money to pay for their archdeacons and traveling

00:39:28.379 - 00:39:50.500

and all that kind of thing, which all went with the preaching of the gospel too. And uh and did you have to try to raise funds that? Well, you see these missionary societies send missionaries and keep the missionaries on the field but anything extra had to

00:39:50.510 - 00:40:06.379

come out of anywhere. The good lord sent you. And there were wonderful experiences of that. We had a, a hospital at Numi which is the junk. Well, ALF used to almost weep when he saw it. The buildings were so poor and we had, we didn't really

00:40:06.629 - 00:40:23.629

have the money for doing what ought to be done to bring them up to more modern standards and to, you know, make the care of people more efficient. And he went away to a conference in Nairobi and uh it was a conference affecting people from several

00:40:23.639 - 00:40:41.060

countries. And he was uh put into um uh a little room with two banks in and he and uh at this conference center, he and a German were together an elderly German man. And they'd got talking and this man had a heart condition. So I said,

00:40:41.070 - 00:40:55.929

oh, you must take the bottom back and I'll go up above and they got talking to one another about what they were doing. And ALF asked what he was doing and he said he was out here to look at hospitals and mission hospitals and ALF ask

00:40:55.939 - 00:41:13.699

why. And he said that he represented a Bread for the world or something. A big German organization called Bread For the World. And they used to take up a big offering once a year. And uh it was given to help upgrade hospitals uh in, in the

00:41:13.709 - 00:41:26.689

third world. And so ALF said, all what kind of hospitals and you know, he gave him a description of the kind of hospitals. And ALF said, all what kind of help would you be prepared to give? And he thought, well, it would depend what was needed

00:41:26.699 - 00:41:43.100

50,000 pounds, 100,000 pounds. And they got talking and this man said, well, yes, this zi project would be the kind of thing they'd like to do. And he also told ALF about other organizations in Germany, which would be willing to help because Tanganyika had been in

00:41:43.110 - 00:42:04.729

a German colony before the first World War. And so that was the beginning of about 250,000 pounds that came, which upgraded our hospitals, built two new wards and operating theater. And uh mhm. It was the beginning of about half a million pounds that came through these

00:42:04.739 - 00:42:25.010

ways in this was the kind of thing that enabled us to do things for the sake of the African church, which you couldn't ask the missionary society to home. And there were other societies um uh which helped us with things like tractors. We had a um

00:42:25.719 - 00:42:44.850

Leroy settlement and we had one of our missionaries there wanting to show the people how to do farming work, keeping um animal husbandry and keeping goats and chickens and uh build growing food to be self supporting because the lepers are nearly always isolated in a place

00:42:44.860 - 00:43:06.229

not uh near the usual community of people. And we found organizations which helped us with things like tractors. And uh then the leprosy mission helped us to put up a hospital and we put up a little detached cottages for the lepers. And where was that? This

00:43:06.239 - 00:43:19.649

was about uh 30 miles from where we lived and we lived in the Doma in the sea center, which is now the capital city, but it was out in the little country area and where it was was by a big lake which meant that we could

00:43:19.659 - 00:43:39.750

take water in. And we, we, they now since a long time, since our time, but they now have fish projects and they are big ponds for um producing fish. And uh uh the water also helps with overhead irrigation for crops, uh uh for fruit and things

00:43:39.760 - 00:44:03.179

like that, which don't depend on normal rainfall. And so all of those kind of funds have to come from outside ordinary giving. The Africans themselves are, are really rather poor. You know, they, they depend this kind of thing not to help with church work. I've always

00:44:03.189 - 00:44:18.629

refused to take any money which would be given, say for instance, to pay us past a salary, the church must support itself. There was one lady in Britain who sent some money to pay for it. She wanted to pay for a pastor. He was to be

00:44:18.639 - 00:44:34.419

her pastor and she'd pay for him. You said nothing to me. I sent the money back again. You know, the money has to be given for uh something which will help the church but not proper it to you. It must stand on its feet even when

00:44:34.429 - 00:44:49.830

it's poor and uh pay for its own people, even if it doesn't pay them very much, it still has to do it. And, and of course, it has been doing it and the church is growing, growing, growing. It's one of the fastest growing areas, East Africa

00:44:49.840 - 00:45:15.290

in the world in church. W what can you just tell me briefly what the revival time there was like and what were the important and then obviously church great. What are the important aspects of the revival movement grew out of uh some Ugandan clergy, one in

00:45:15.300 - 00:45:38.239

particular called Blasio. Uh He was a AAA clergyman. In Uganda who felt that the message um didn't put enough emphasis on repentance and sin and that people ought to be more aware of their sinfulness and the need of salvation and the need of cleansing. And uh

00:45:38.250 - 00:45:51.300

they got together and there was a real fire broke out and they took the passage from one John which says if you walk in the light as he is in the light, if we walk in the lightest hes in the light, we have fellowship with one

00:45:51.310 - 00:46:09.389

another and the blood of uh of Christ, God's son cleanses us from all sin. That was their big strong point. They preached on it continuously and walking in the light meant that you didn't, you mustn't be afraid of telling somebody else when he's doing the wrong

00:46:09.399 - 00:46:33.530

thing that you had to challenge people about their Christian walk, you had to challenge them about sin. And they worked greatly through um emphasis on uh prayer meetings, fellowship meetings, the confession of sin and singing and uh they never got outside of the church. But the

00:46:33.540 - 00:46:50.030

fellowship meetings were separate meetings in a sense, more like our young people's meetings were you still belong to the church and you follow the church activities. But your meetings were spreading out all the time and they spread the revival message spread right down through Kenya and

00:46:50.040 - 00:47:08.080

right down through Tanganyika. And of course, you got some excesses like you do with most movements, but on the whole, it, it was really, it gave people what we call a heart religion, just rather than verbal acceptance of the gospel. And we had an instance we

00:47:08.090 - 00:47:25.520

had a man working, came under the blessing of the revival and we noticed several things about him. We noticed he got his marriage straight. There had been problems there, he got that straight. Then we went off on a safari at one time, we were going to

00:47:25.530 - 00:47:37.280

be away from home for about a week. And he came and said, while we were away, could he go off for two days and buy some poles? He w he was building a house and he had to go a certain distance to get them. And we

00:47:37.290 - 00:47:52.260

said, oh yes, that would be all right. Well, prior to this time, he would have gone and nobody would have told us he'd gone. He wouldn't have even thought of asking. He began to get a view of honesty and uh responsibility and reliability. It didn't improve

00:47:52.270 - 00:48:10.659

his IQ or his gifts in any way, but it straightened out his moral life. And that was the effect that the revival had on people. It straightened their moral lives and gave them a uh a real Godly walk. Uh And people were struck by it and

00:48:10.669 - 00:48:27.280

of course, it, it uh and it hasn't finished even now. It was definitely a movement of the Holy Spirit. We were just talking the other day about a man who we knew called Simeon. He was a nominal Christian. Uh and he went to one of these

00:48:27.290 - 00:48:42.679

convention meetings. He was a cattle trader and he got really stirred up and he came home and he told his wife, God has forgiven all my sins. He was very joyful except the sin of drunkenness. He was a great drinker and he, he couldn't see that,

00:48:42.689 - 00:48:57.870

that he, he yielded this up. So he called, told his wife to bring him some warm beer because the beer was brewed at home. So she brought him in this warm beer and he put it on the table and sat near it, tried to drink it

00:48:57.879 - 00:49:08.270

every time he'd get it up to his mouth and he wouldn't get it any further and he put it down and picked it up and put it down. And finally he said it's cold, bring me some more. So she brought him in some more. He never

00:49:08.280 - 00:49:24.239

ever could. He couldn't, he couldn't never God, never let him drink that. And uh he, he, he was a successful cattle trader but and he loved the began to love the Lord and to follow him. But he realized that he'd like to be an evangelist, but

00:49:24.250 - 00:49:38.689

he didn't have what it took to be an evangelist. But instead of that, he'd like to pay for an evangelist. So every time he sold a cow, he'd come and he'd bring out the money in the office to put towards pioneer evangelism. And uh he was

00:49:38.699 - 00:49:53.510

regular, kept bringing this in all the time. Well, just before we left Africa, we saw him one day in the garage and uh asked him how he's getting on with beaming face. He said, oh, God has blessed me very much. And we said how, oh he

00:49:53.520 - 00:50:10.129

said, all my Children have been accepted for secondary school and there were so few places for secondary school. And he, he really believed that this was uh God's blessing on him because he was trying to, to follow him and to, you know, walk in the light

00:50:10.139 - 00:50:38.280

and so forth. And it was a tremendous experience, the revival movement. Oh, sorry, we're going to get a, just reminded me of a story talking of God's faithfulness. And um he was asked to go across to uh just out of Pittsburgh and start a, an E

00:50:38.300 - 00:51:01.969

episcopal seminary which would put an emphasis on the gospel and on evangelism. Now, evangelism is not a, a well accepted word in the Episcopal church. It wasn't in those days because people were rather linked it with uh fundamentalist sects in America. And so any clergyman who

00:51:01.979 - 00:51:20.330

is going to look favorably on it on this would, would really be putting his uh himself on the line. But um John Stott had suggested that um uh the committee invite off to go over. So this was after our period at Ridley and 1975 we went

00:51:20.340 - 00:51:37.810

and he had to set up um, a seminary from nothing. We just had a room in the house and so forth and, and a desk and a secretary. And in the course of getting started, we, we had to, we had no venue. So we hired him,

00:51:38.510 - 00:51:55.469

uh rumors at a, at a business college, they had uh part of their college which wasn't being used. And we hired that and the first students came and they were only 16 students and began to get faculty. He, he was able to get a very good

00:51:55.479 - 00:52:12.709

man who was the vice vice principal at Virginia Sector Seminary. And they, the people he got had good doctorates and they were fine people and evangelical. And we started off, but very often we had to pray the money in for the wages because we weren't very

00:52:12.719 - 00:52:32.199

well known and uh the money was tight. And uh one day John Rogers, who was his vice principal said to us, we, we haven't enough money for the wages. We're $2150 short. And the officer, oh, it will come in the mail. No, he said it won't.

00:52:32.209 - 00:52:46.419

We've had the mail and it's not in the mail. Well, else it'll come by hand. Well, that morning, a student came in and he'd had a letter from his mother in that mail and she'd sent a check for $1000 in memory of a relative who died.

00:52:46.520 - 00:53:06.030

So he brought in, that was the 1st 1000 then a student came in and paid back fees $650. So all that was needed now was another $500 but it didn't come and John had to go off to uh Pittsburgh to see him, businessman. And when they

00:53:06.040 - 00:53:21.040

finished their business, he gave him a an envelope and there was a check for $500. So when he came back rejoicing to ALF Al said, well, that's alright. I I thought it would come, but he said that was for your sake. So Marcus was just remembering

00:53:21.050 - 00:53:37.239

this story the other day and wrote it in a letter, but that's how it happened all along the way that uh uh you know, putting an emphasis on Bible teaching and, and relying on God to give his approval by uh the gift coming when they were

00:53:37.250 - 00:53:55.370

needed and uh slowly at first and then accelerating as you needed more premises and more teachers and all the rest of it. That's quite exciting, really exciting. The whole thing was exciting, wasn't it? Well, it was a little bit like the in hospital, you know, having

00:53:55.379 - 00:54:09.209

this, staying in a room with a man from Germany was able to provide all this money. So we've always felt that and we felt feel it here in our own church saying, you know, if we've got to pay our debts first before we think of doing

00:54:09.219 - 00:54:24.689

new things you know, you, you buy a new rectory but you haven't really paid for it yet. So we, we sort of encourage people to get rid of, uh, of things which haven't been paid for now before launching into something new that you want a lot

00:54:24.699 - 00:54:47.280

more money for. And you find that God bless us when people get the money matters straight. I was just going to ask whether you thought the, there seemed to have been a fairly strong lay movement here in Melbourne. And I wondered if that was because some

00:54:47.290 - 00:55:07.689

of the clergy were a bit half hearted. Well, uh, it seemed that God was leading the young people uh, in a special way which wasn't happening among the clergy. Um, most of us would, would tell the clergy what we were doing and why we were doing

00:55:07.699 - 00:55:23.610

it. And I remember going and telling our clergyman that I had made a commitment to Christ. I think he already thought I was there. So I don't think he was very suitably impressed. Although he was a very fine man. I know you were angry. Yes, always.

00:55:23.899 - 00:55:43.870

But the, um, the, the push to get things done was being done by young lay people. And at the time, I think most of them weren't even considering, um, a life of service in the church as such. They were all carrying on their ordinary vocations and

00:55:43.889 - 00:56:04.550

just spending all their spare time really in organizing rallies and meetings. And conferences and, and things like that for young people and uh when they did get backing from the clergy, um they were even more effective, I think, but sometimes they, I don't remember any time

00:56:04.560 - 00:56:23.189

when they did anything uh with the disapproval of the clergy but they, they just felt they had to go ahead. They, they went ahead and uh organized by themselves and there was quite a, uh an emphasis on women doing things too. Um Women were in young,

00:56:23.219 - 00:56:39.219

young women were all included in, in the talks. And in um uh any, any of the efforts that we had rallies and things like that, they took their part just the same as the men. So it, it was really, um as far as we could see

00:56:39.229 - 00:57:02.479

it, it was um the thrust mainly came from young lay people in the parishes coming up to the present day. Um Well, I was excited that an evangelical became archbishop. Um Do you think there'll be great changes here in Melbourne because of this? I mean, will

00:57:02.489 - 00:57:21.810

there be, will the evangelical position strengthen? I think so, I think the answer is yes. Uh The thing is, I think that there ha there are all sorts of changes which really have nothing to do with evangelicalism. Even there are so many changes taking place in

00:57:21.820 - 00:57:44.889

the form of services and the way things are done. And, and again, even these days, uh many, many things are being done by lay people. But, um, uh, the trend seems to be, uh, in the colleges Ridley has gone ahead with many, many more students than

00:57:44.899 - 00:58:16.399

they had a few years back. There's a, there's a real emphasis on, uh, working in and through Ridley and, uh, well, you'd know more about this than me out with them more than I do every day for four years students. Oh, that was back in 1971

00:58:16.409 - 00:58:49.560

wasn't it? Eight, first year students? And what would there be now? First year, about 50 different. I don't have to go and get most students. More than half the students are, are secular students, are they? Yes, because a university college, more than half the students, you're

00:58:49.570 - 00:59:09.810

correcting more than more than half of the students who are coming into Inter Ridley, uh are not necessarily going to go into the ministry. They are wanting to, um, get real Bible knowledge and to be qualified perhaps to teach religious subjects or to, um, just generally

00:59:09.820 - 00:59:26.080

to be up in, in their knowledge of, of the Bible. Uh some of them, of course, will go into the ministry, but quite a number have not gone there for that purpose. Primarily. That's the situation today, I think, isn't it? And they have quite a number

00:59:26.090 - 00:59:47.000

of, uh, of them doing night subjects, you know, special me studies and uh that has all um developed tremendously. And of course, um we've not only got uh an evangelical archbishop. We've got Bishop Stewart in the western region who was the C MS secretary, an evangelical

00:59:47.010 - 01:00:10.090

and John Wilson in, in the, the southern, in the southern region who's an evangelical and was on the Ridley staff and they're fine people. And uh I think the train probably will be and to an evangelical leaning in the future in favor of, well, I've just

01:00:10.100 - 01:00:15.520

said the face of the diocese is altered quite a deal from the past. Ok.