00:00:01.600 - 00:00:29.520

OK, double interview then N Michael in January 1997 by Margaret play. OK. Thank you very much indeed, for giving me your time. I wondered if you uh particularly would like to know what your experience has been particular it normal? And do you uh want tell me

00:00:29.530 - 00:00:56.270

panels first experience? Yeah, for a week, the people at NWA heard about the revival of Elco which was uh where the arrival really started. Um And so they thought this was really great and decided to ask if the a team could come to Nulla and have

00:00:56.279 - 00:01:13.879

meetings meetings there. Now, it was as it turned out something like six months before the Alco team finally arrived for one reason or another. And during that time, a lot of prayer was going into the meetings and, and several people, it seems to me came to

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the Lord or came back to the Lord even before the, the LK team. Um at that stage, we'd been there, I think about three years. Um So they were, they started having these regular meetings and more people were coming and things were picking up even before

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the Oco team arrived. When the yo team did come. It, uh, my impression was that there were a lot of people who were sort of, had been very much thinking about Christian things because of the, because of what was already going on. And that was kind

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of the time when they made their commitment. Um, certainly we had heaps of people come to the meetings and, um, on the last night I seem to remember there were more than 20 people that came forward for, to come to the Lord or rededicate their lives.

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Um What sort of population was there? Like? It's around about 400 or so. Not, not that many adults that's including everybody's and I suppose we've got about 250 adults. It was less than 300 altogether here. And did, was it adults or everybody at these meetings? Everybody

00:02:28.750 - 00:02:41.169

came to the meetings because everybody always comes to the meetings because that's just the way it is there. Um But it was really, it was really only for aimed at adults and of course, the adults aren't really talking about. The kids tend to come to meetings

00:02:41.179 - 00:03:01.289

and then they play around in the background and they take to get going. I have um, the theme that I can particularly remember at that time was that a number of men really came into things who've been out of them. Um The most, probably the most

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notable one would be uh Rupert who's now a minister there. He had had some sort of church involvement earlier on before we arrived, but certainly nothing was in evidence at all during the time when we first came there. And then he, he rededicated his life at

00:03:19.029 - 00:03:32.539

the yo when the team came and, um, going on from there ever since. And there was a few others in the same category which is a bit different to some of the other places where they, where there are still not very many men in, in some

00:03:32.550 - 00:03:56.550

places of as well as that. There are other men who listened, older men who listened and had sympathy gradually stepped into the church. There are things one my brother's side, the coast line me and there are plenty who sort of the break their step tiger racing,

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I think is because let me see, OK, how visual or something. Yes. Now this was an important factor and it wasn't that it was uh it was initiated. I think it looking back, it seems to me that the, the fact that it was an indigenous Aboriginal

00:04:14.279 - 00:04:31.399

thing probably had as much, you know, it was as much a factor as anything else really. But that definitely the a lot of Aborigines had seen the Christian church as a white man's institution and this was a barrier and whatever they might or mightn't have thought

00:04:31.410 - 00:04:52.769

of the gospel. That was definitely a barrier. And um with that, with that down and the genuine genuine indigenous uh proclamation of the gospel. I think they've really opened the way for the Lord to touch a lot of those people. Um, the, since the, since then,

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the, um, Elco tradition, if I could call it a fellowship meetings every night has been maintained pretty well. Um, oh, almost every night since then. That's about seven years. Admirable. Yes. Every night. Now they have a fellowship meeting. Often. Not very many go these days. But,

00:05:13.559 - 00:05:32.410

but that's the, uh, that was the way it happened at Elco. And I think they feel that it's important to keep something going. And was there a problem with people being sort of too tired? So, this was suggested in to say that, uh, after the meeting

00:05:32.450 - 00:05:50.769

should continue with the problems that, you know, Children fall asleep at school, it looks like a problem to me. But the people themselves didn't seem to think it was much of a problem. I think probably they don't see the value of education for Children the same

00:05:50.779 - 00:06:03.529

way we do. And so I don't think they, I don't think they perceived it as very much of a problem and they felt that it was more important to keep something going so that the Christians would, would actually have something Christian to do in the evening

00:06:03.540 - 00:06:16.470

instead of being tempted to go back to gambling or drinking or whatever it might have been. And I think they probably felt that was the most important thing to, to keep something going. I've heard that said by a number of people that is the problem with

00:06:16.529 - 00:06:34.700

that is that if they go to, they have no to work or witness to those ones because they cut out the Christians are cutting themselves alike and who are Christians. The two hearty that things are true and especially his love of the Christians are the ones

00:06:34.709 - 00:06:48.290

who have jobs in the community. Um, they, so they, they, they tend to be more cut off and I think myself, just from the way things are going, that they need it as, like I said, and as they thought to have that situation where they had

00:06:48.299 - 00:07:04.010

more and more fellowship, but that they are getting to the stage where they don't now need to do it every night. And, um, most people go every Friday night or every Sunday night and most people go at least one other night a week. There are very

00:07:04.019 - 00:07:18.079

few people who go every night a week now. And, but every night, there's usually somebody there and a few people there and it's getting to the stage where people are going to have to sort out for themselves to go through or perhaps through the finance of

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fellowship. And then the other nights they don't or something like that so that it's easier. And the aboriginal people do have opportunities for witness that they needed to begin with to gain to their strength of photo shoot and be involved in these reasons. Now, what to,

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it's terribly variable. It's, um, it could be say in a week, how many, or how many different people in a whole week who might have, uh, I suppose about 20 or so, it wouldn't be a huge number. Um, yeah, if everybody's there but if it's a

00:07:58.989 - 00:08:14.690

cold night, uh, you might only get five or six, it's, it's terribly variable and that makes it a bit hard to c, and you get a number of people who really do go every night. Um, but I think another factor of the, of the meetings, it's

00:08:14.700 - 00:08:31.790

probably a bad one is that it means that Christians don't feel necessarily permitted to go to Christian meetings because the meetings are on too often. And so they can't go to every meeting and therefore there's no real feeling that they ought to go to any one

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particular meeting, like, like Sunday church or anything like that. And I think if it was way on the back of it and the emphasis was made on a few, few meetings a week at which everybody could feel more, um, inclined to go to, I think it

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would, it would help rather than just getting dribs and drabs every night. Now, is there a difference on the, in the Sunday than, um, there's not a difference in the people who go. No, in the, they, we still have Sunday morning church, which, which I, I

00:09:03.479 - 00:09:16.849

think is, is kept on mainly because it was the way the first missionaries did it. And so everybody thinks it's got to be kept on like that. Um, whereas probably a night meeting would be more suitable. But you, you just can't get people to change. They,

00:09:16.859 - 00:09:33.349

they're the most, I think they must be the most conservative people in the world once they start doing something one way you, you just can't change it but you get basically the same people coming on Sunday morning, the same core group. And uh um the French

00:09:33.359 - 00:09:49.940

people usually don't come. But whenever there's something like um each year there's the Elko revival meetings at El O which we, we, there were the first one, a lot more peoples come back and then a lot more people own the church for a lot longer where

00:09:49.950 - 00:10:04.859

every time they are the Bible camps again, everybody comes and I'm much more involved in it. It comes to where it comes to the Bible club there is here and I'll, I'll tell you here. So here in church you might have in any particular church, 40

00:10:04.869 - 00:10:20.380

people who regularly come. And when you go away to a fellowship weekend of those 40 maybe 20 will go at of the Aboriginal people, 40 people will be the ones who come regularly to church. And then when you have the Bible camp, 80 will come. All

00:10:20.390 - 00:10:36.109

the others will want to come as well because within their own culture regardless of how you associate with each other at normal times. Everybody goes to the ceremony. It's a, it's a cultural thing that you, you, you wind everything up for a few big ceremonies or

00:10:36.119 - 00:10:48.049

something through the year where everybody makes a big effort and then the rest of the time you don't bother much. And that's, and the Christians are starting to do it the same way. We've got our things like Bible camp. And, uh, um, there's a, there was

00:10:48.059 - 00:11:00.590

a convention on Groo Island this last year and there's a few things like that and everybody goes to that, but they don't seem to feel any commitment to turn up the church every week. And it's a, and the Bible camp was away from, it was out

00:11:00.599 - 00:11:11.239

in the bush about a half an hour drive out. The Bible camp is at a lot of different places. It goes to different places every year, wherever it is. If it's at number one, we have it out of nimble light on the car. If it's at

00:11:11.250 - 00:11:21.619

Aken, they have it out of Alan Kelly somewhere else. So, whichever people are having it, they have it out of town so close it up and say we can get you to the doctor and he breaks a little bit far enough out. So you're not disturbed

00:11:21.630 - 00:11:34.260

by everybody else. But, you know, to, to our eyes, it's a very up and down kind of thing where a lot of people just seem to really only practice their Christian commitment a few times a year and then they just drift away again and we wonder

00:11:34.270 - 00:11:54.059

how real it is. But I suppose that's, uh, I don't know, it's, uh, something that will just come gradually, I suppose, with my understanding of God's word. Do you see changes as people by listening to God's Word? Yes, I think so. But it's among the main,

00:11:54.070 - 00:12:11.729

the, the really poor families who are really coming all the time hearing the Bible read in, in their language. And, um, well, the, the fringe people seem to be terribly, you know, very dependent on feelings, very up and down. They were sort of all for one

00:12:11.739 - 00:12:27.780

week and all, uh completely gone the next week. The main reason for that is because they do like those things really and they've got some of it and as they've got it, as they more so they're becoming more and more stable. But that is even more

00:12:27.789 - 00:12:51.539

significant amongst the people, Auckland and others in those areas because of the particular churches that they're involved in. They do not have, they are not based on a word of thought. When the Republicans came through at El Car, they were not as um charismatic people to

00:12:51.710 - 00:13:09.130

die. They weren't charismatic. If that is God's spirit was, the country was leaving and died in a new situation. And that's how the revival came through because the people themselves are in a situation where their fear comes from fear of evil spirit. And in the situation

00:13:09.330 - 00:13:23.229

for God, therefore to be victorious, they need to see that God is victorious over evil spirits and that is He is victorious spiritually. And so those kind of things come through very strongly to them. And that's obviously what God used and why I used it now.

00:13:24.479 - 00:13:41.599

But from there, King's head in some churches bo down because they're not just using God spirit and one mechanical spirit, but they stopped them in that situation and they're no longer going on further in the Christian things and being led by the spirit to go further

00:13:41.609 - 00:13:55.539

and to see what the word says and going and being involved in things, they're just stuck on spiritual things as in what people now sometimes talk chari when everybody's mad about dropping down on the ground and feeling Marvo and those kind of things, which is that

00:13:55.549 - 00:14:11.469

label of Charismatic. We're talking about it that way in some churches and that it's not like it's not like that in normal or a route or any of the CMS places that, that I'm aware of. Um But at some other places, there does seem to be

00:14:11.479 - 00:14:30.479

an overemphasis on this kind of manifestation. And um it's very easy to get a couple of 100 people coming to a meeting when you've got that sort of thing going on. But you'll um wonder about the real Christian commitment of the people involved because, uh, it

00:14:30.869 - 00:14:44.500

doesn't really affect the rest of their lives, but we're not in those, in that situation. And so we're not really able to make much comment in that area, I suppose. Uh, but even at, even at Numbulwar it's easy to get a couple of 100 people to

00:14:44.510 - 00:14:58.080

come to a meeting if you've got a big speaker and a lot of things happening, but then they won't, you won't see them next Auckland Church or anything. Yes. And although, although I can't speak easily about what's happening in other places at the moment, except to

00:14:58.090 - 00:15:13.229

say there are obviously some places because it can start because of because of they're looking for the wrong thing. Um It didn't go the wrong way when people first came here. In fact, I was obviously playing a show that his spirit is over. So maybe looking

00:15:13.239 - 00:15:23.950

around for it and that was the way he was doing it. And that's what the people needed to see because that's what they're afraid of. Um So, and acting that way, hey, and it was very important and we have found that we have to be very

00:15:23.960 - 00:15:40.619

careful in no way to indicate that we don't believe in spirits because we know that the Bible says is there or that we don't um pretend they can't do anything and make sure that what we say plainly is that God has overcome all those things, not

00:15:40.630 - 00:15:52.900

just overcome them for us. But for anybody who is and that's all there is in it, in full stop and keep it that way so we can keep it down that way and go from there into God's word and see where the rest of the way

00:15:52.909 - 00:16:05.869

he takes us and all the things that are happening in every room, not just in those sort of things, then we're right. Things are done. This happen. It's very easy to be tempted to just go to one direction, especially when that's where the other is no

00:16:05.900 - 00:16:23.469

different. And they've had real fears in those areas. And um this is the whole balance between Christianity and what's happening in aboriginal situations. They were bound by, he directed by fear and they did everything else and very, very hard for them to step over to the

00:16:23.479 - 00:16:45.429

site and you do things because of love. Now when you speak about them being uh sort of stopping short, right? Do they then go backwards? What, what can I do? I don't really quite understand that. Could you elaborate there in some places people have got to

00:16:45.440 - 00:17:01.390

the stage where they come through the revival situation and then you know, where is it? Well, have overcome, having got to that stage, they stopped and realized it was there and they don't take it into their lives to teach them to go and relate to other

00:17:01.400 - 00:17:16.359

people the right way around, to learn to do things again and all they will stop and look to, is the fact that God is there, the Holy Spirit is there. He's moving through the land will stop. That's it. He doesn't have any practical artwork in, in

00:17:16.369 - 00:17:40.489

their life except that they, they know that he's no, it's not. Which isn't very practical out. He's just another power like that. Quite a number of the teenagers are like this. They, they believe in God and things have happened to them sometimes that they've recognized as

00:17:40.500 - 00:17:53.099

being from the power of God, but they're not relating to him. It's just another power or if you like they're relating in fear, they know he's there and they realize he's there, but they're not gonna do anything about it particularly. They're not going to give their

00:17:53.109 - 00:18:04.270

lives to him. They know he's there, but they can't trust him to be careful in what he's doing. He's very powerful. And so they don't go in through all that and they've got to get to the stage where they put this guy and hand themselves over

00:18:04.280 - 00:18:20.239

to him. So they're having trouble believing the view there of believing him as just and righteous and as somebody who will take them and keep them. And the father looks after their Children, they're nowhere near those. I thought there was one situation where they were, some

00:18:20.250 - 00:18:34.670

teenage boys had stolen the vehicle and they were driving rather recklessly through the bush and they, uh, the vehicle ticked over and, uh, I went out of control and was heading for a tree and they all say that they saw a shining hand come down and

00:18:34.680 - 00:18:47.530

redirect the vehicle. So it landed in some soft sand and they all walked away without a scratch on them and they were sure this was God, but none of them were really, none of them had become Christians. None of them therefore responded to go, to go

00:18:47.540 - 00:19:05.420

to him and to yield to Him. They just aware that he's there like in all good, would you, how would you uh interpret this? Would you think what they said is possibly true? II, I think it's quite possibly true. I think God. God. God does call

00:19:05.430 - 00:19:20.209

all of us in a way that, that speaks to us and this was a way that spoke to them and they could see the power of God and also the goodness of God um in saving them. And that makes them more responsible than if they don't,

00:19:21.380 - 00:19:44.420

if they don't uh respond to it. I mean, God adjust God, adjusts His, his approach to our particular needs and where, where we're at. Um He treats us a thing to be and you would have no hesitation in calling. What happened with revival. No, no, I,

00:19:44.430 - 00:19:57.500

I wouldn't. I, I think a revival I, I suppose is just another way of saying a spiritual awakening uh where you get a whole lot of people coming to the Lord or, or people who wandered away, recommitting their lives. I uh anything like that, I'd call

00:19:57.510 - 00:20:13.709

a revival, regardless, regardless of whether it has any particular kind of um outwork actual visible out l whether it's particularly charismatic or whether it's not or whatever it is. If it's a, if it's any sort of uh situation where people are coming back to the Lord,

00:20:13.810 - 00:20:30.410

coming to the Lord in, in, in numbers, I, I'd call that a revival. So, so yes, I would say it's a revival. It was a revival. Yes. And quite a few people who came in have stood in that situation and stayed there with the Lord. And

00:20:30.420 - 00:20:51.589

I gather that's the situation. The actual manifestations were very different in different places on Elco and other places like that. I gather it was very charismatic um at number. Why? It wasn't um even though some of the Elco team when they came, there were speaking in

00:20:51.599 - 00:21:10.739

tongues and doing that sort of thing. I'm not aware of any of the NWA people doing it or, or feeling that they ought to. Um they had um no, I remember our, our, our coworker LGA. You know, he said to me something rather strange. He said

00:21:10.750 - 00:21:26.920

um I think he was talking about healing services and he said um they do that up there because they're uniting church, but we're Anglican and we don't seemed a funny way to look at it, especially as we do have your services. So I don't quite know

00:21:26.930 - 00:21:41.030

what he was driving, I thought. But, but the, the point is he was aware that there were differences of emphasis and felt that there wasn't anything peculiar about that. Um And there certainly have been differences of emphasis in the, in the way things have worked out,

00:21:41.300 - 00:22:00.290

but they're very different in different processes. What would you say would be the uh role of prayer in this? And there were all the things that like I said at the beginning that happened beforehand. A great deal was involved beforehand. And that in many ways was

00:22:00.300 - 00:22:16.189

what started people moving towards revival because they were praying about it as involvement. Yes. And the, the, the firm Christians are very, very um stronger whenever there's big problems in the community or there are arguments or fights or some, something goes wrong. Uh That what they

00:22:16.199 - 00:22:31.280

need to be doing is praying about it. And they, but usually when there's some big problem, they'll call special prayer meetings. And this is still very strong and the same thing happens now, they do have um where they do have meetings where they hear, pray for

00:22:31.290 - 00:22:43.670

healing. But what they do is pray for healing and everybody is praying about it. And that is the emphasis that they're praying. And it is significant uh much more so there because they're still in a situation where they have witch doctors who say they relax for

00:22:43.680 - 00:22:58.739

c And so it is very significant therefore, for the Christians to be able to say they need to be like, God can overrule in those situations and they will pray, they will pray to Him for it. Well, you see, it depends on the situation that they're

00:22:58.750 - 00:23:12.959

in culturally, whether they do or don't need help in these particular areas. And God definitely needs to, in order to be able to have an effect on people who aren't yet Christians to be able to show that regardless of what Satan can do, he can do,

00:23:12.969 - 00:23:25.449

he can in fact heal in the situation. And it's, that's the sort of thing that happens through the Bible. As you read it all the way through, it changes the things are according to the situation and that's what happens all the way through. And um that's

00:23:25.459 - 00:23:45.650

the way things are. They pray about people and they do pray for people quite a lot. He, and do you see uh evidence of uh God's answer? I don, do you do in that? Um Well, it depends, well, well, certainly in the case of healing, there've

00:23:45.660 - 00:24:02.650

been uh been things happened that we've been told about that people have had uh various sort of things and uh and we've got that problem. Um OK, I'm just trying to remember any details that particularly not, not the sort of more spectacular kind of things like

00:24:02.660 - 00:24:16.900

you get reported in some places with broken legs fixed and things like that. Not, not, not of that kind of nature and it hasn't always been there and the person hasn't always been here and there have been other situations where his plane is in love just

00:24:17.239 - 00:24:32.189

here. Long time. Can you give me the best instances in my own life because I never left them. And I was very aware of the fact we were, everybody was convinced that they would have prayed and that came from people and down the star and other

00:24:32.199 - 00:24:49.550

people. But as we went through it and prayed, I was convicted to pray and to continually pray afterwards. And as I pray and gave it to any of those kids, now you've given it completely to me, you will not be healed until I feel it at

00:24:49.560 - 00:25:00.609

all. Until after we've blown away. That was three years ago. Um And we would just stay there and it was, it was, it was very plain and simple. We'd stay that way. Now, I can see lots of reasons why there have been lots of things that

00:25:00.619 - 00:25:15.869

are happening, but that was the way and I was to be told to stop playing and that was fun. How did you, how did you come to that? I mean, how, how do you know that while I was playing? It wasn't any other way. It was

00:25:15.880 - 00:25:28.780

while I was playing. To start with what, when Keith first spoke, we didn't know that what we should or shouldn't be in it. We found we should be in it. We were convicted that we ought to be, ought to be involved in it as we went

00:25:28.790 - 00:25:45.099

through. So they went on and I became more and more convicted of what I had to do more than anything else would be prepared to keep asking. And so I kept going. And about two months later, I then became convicted. I then started to probate. And

00:25:45.109 - 00:25:59.079

at that, the first time I started to feel God was saying to me, I became aware that God was saying to me, no, you will not be here, but I wasn't told to stop. And the next night again, the same thing at night it was, I

00:25:59.089 - 00:26:10.060

was not to be healed until I was flying from the and that he would then do what he used to. But it was too, I in the right and I was to stop crying about it. And that went for about three nights until I stopped. And

00:26:10.099 - 00:26:37.170

the next one I wrote to Michael's mother and I to her which crossed in the mail, which city where she, so that sort of thing happens. Ok. Fine. Ok. That, that, that kind of thing does happen. But they are very, very like in any other situation

00:26:37.180 - 00:26:52.040

when there are old people in the situation, they know, I don't know what if you've been involved in that. But if there are very old people out there and very old people up there are certainly that's about the oldest people can do to, um, those who

00:26:52.050 - 00:27:09.420

are almost always know for about a week, maybe three or four days before they, they die and they do the most automated thing. And, um, I was surprised when my aunt the other day in Sydney, her mother died about six months ago and she said she

00:27:09.430 - 00:27:26.619

died of a crime and she said, oh, that was bad. She knew. I know. That's what I been doing. That happens a lot when I say, but anyway, that is what can happen. And as I've said, the significant thing is that people need to be not

00:27:26.630 - 00:27:44.339

just involving that sort of relationship, family. Yes. And they need to be in that situation and what's going on and that is happening. People are more than, but to be involved in that for us to be able to lead people through his word, we have to

00:27:44.380 - 00:27:57.849

go along and talk with them about all the other things that are happening to speak about things to say honestly, no, we don't understand about that or honestly, yes. Although a lot of people don't agree about there being with groups around, we know they're really there

00:27:57.859 - 00:28:19.339

even although we can't see them and to talk honestly about those as well as the inside and the model. So should really be doing things this far. So let's go. And we had, we really must treat it very strongly, teach things and as we learn things.

00:28:19.699 - 00:28:34.680

So go on, we found that that and this has been a revival with us. It's continuing on and growing and growing. You know, people have been in the last two years, um more and more openly to talking to us that has been tremendous. And I think,

00:28:34.969 - 00:28:48.910

um although there are many things obviously that have continued to come into it, it stems back the started back there. That's where it all started when they were doing things and they started talking about things and discussing things out. And now we've got to the stage

00:28:48.920 - 00:29:02.180

where they're starting to open themselves, uh, and talk to us about things, ask questions about ceremonies that they're involved in. Talk back to examples about doing things with Children. How you, you been talking about why they have a trouble with their teenagers, why they can't do

00:29:02.189 - 00:29:20.000

what they ought to be doing with their Children, discussing things out what the difference is between the way aboriginal people are. Your parents and those sort of everything. Yeah. And we talk, talked all those things out for a very easy. Oh, I, I'll just give you

00:29:20.010 - 00:29:31.949

a fact. One of the main things which has really turned out to be is, is just, has opened the eyes a lot. Yy came down to us about 2.5 years ago and she said they've got real problems up there. There are barriers often that come up

00:29:31.959 - 00:29:46.030

with it. The people in the church and make them stand against each other and fight with each other. And she said these ones here are like this and they're having trouble with this. And I said to you what the problem is, you feel me. And I

00:29:46.040 - 00:29:59.719

tell you, it is true that all those people on that side do that and all those people in that sort of do, but that is only one piece of the story. Satan is trying to tell me that everybody is over there and all the other people

00:29:59.729 - 00:30:13.050

are over the other side. The truth is that one person is here and one is here and one is here and one is here. Everybody is in a different place and in our minds, he keeps shooting lines through us and making you say, look, all those

00:30:13.060 - 00:30:25.239

people over there aren't like all you people over here. But the truth is all of us addition to each other and just picking you and Michael and I who are together, we were sitting in the room together. He could have put a line through and told

00:30:25.250 - 00:30:36.859

Joy and I to be together because we remember that he was a man. He could have put a line through y and Michael and kept them together because they're brothers and sisters and cut me out. Or he could have put Michael and I together and cut

00:30:37.000 - 00:30:48.900

Milky out because they're white and she's black. And I said we couldn't do it any of those ones. But the truth is you're a white woman who's his sister, a black woman, who's his sister. He's a white man, who's your brother. And I'm a white woman

00:30:48.910 - 00:31:03.520

who is, who's married to Michael and I'm his sister in law. We all have whole different situations and Satan continually traps us by putting lines through and telling us you're all divided this way. Of course, we've got to keep remembering that people, people have lots of

00:31:03.530 - 00:31:17.709

them, everybody has lots of them and to accept each other and all that is that now going through that whole situation and talking about that people are gradually therefore starting to open up to each other and talk to them and be prepared to accept that each

00:31:17.719 - 00:32:02.390

of the other. People don't always have to say that was a good section. Have you yourselves? Um, any change through the Revi I pursue, I can't think of it to do it. Mm. I think I'm probably conscious of a, more of a, of a greater

00:32:02.400 - 00:32:22.119

warmth of fellowship with the aboriginal people that's grown up since, uh, the start of, uh, they po possibly just as much because they're having the fellowship meetings are on and we go to them and we, we sort of participate in those. But, um, oh, yeah, that's

00:32:22.130 - 00:32:37.050

about, about a, like it's happened. Yeah, I would say anything that I can say is that it's changed a lot in me has been because I've got to know the aboriginal people. Now indirectly, that's a result of the revival in some senses, because some of them

00:32:37.060 - 00:32:51.530

I know because they've become Christians in the revival. But it's, it's the main things that I've learned in those areas. Main things that I've picked up have been relating across to the aboriginal people. And um and you know, Michael's going really well with our minister who

00:32:51.540 - 00:33:11.099

came to live again in their arrival and their brother, their brotherhood, which has been very good. So it's indirectly in that sense, but not over all other specifically. And did you become brothers then, or? No, that was already because more than a year before we'd been

00:33:11.109 - 00:33:27.890

doing some translation work with Yu, who's, who's Rupert's sister. And because we were working with her, I ended up being adopted as her brother. And uh so then when Rupert came to the Lord, I was just automatically his brother because he, he was his four brother

00:33:28.430 - 00:33:42.329

and that was well before he was all. But it has been very rare used by, well, because of the relationship and we can talk to each other but just straight across to each other and not either down or up to each other. Yeah, it's very good

00:33:42.619 - 00:34:03.660

for home. And how, um how do you feel Rupert is progressing quite well. He's a very good organizer and he's a very good preacher and he's very clever and you could preach in English or Nua or Creole or whatever the occasion demands or a mixture of

00:34:03.670 - 00:34:21.529

all of it. Uh, and, uh, I suppose the, the way he needs to go is just to learn more about the Bible himself. He makes very good use of what he's got, but he, he needs to keep going forward. And, um, there's been various attempts made

00:34:21.539 - 00:34:36.678

to do tee courses and stuff like that. But, uh, on the community rip, it always seems to be very busy doing other things and he's always racing here and there and everywhere and, uh, never gets time to sit down and do his tee work and that's

00:34:36.688 - 00:34:50.780

proving to be a bit of a problem there. But, uh, otherwise he's going extremely well. Yes. Does he reach well? Yes. At least he will talk about with Michael and he wants to know that he'll come and discuss things with Michael. Um I was really pleased

00:34:50.790 - 00:35:02.300

he was in D I think a while ago and came back and drove straight down to our place into the office and flopped on the Treasury Las, which was really good that he'd come and done that because he just, he just wanted to get away and

00:35:02.310 - 00:35:18.580

sit down and have a rest. And so it's been very, very good in the way you talk back with Michael and say what happened a while ago. And this was a very big step forward. The, the Aboriginal people curse shops are not all the time. Um

00:35:18.659 - 00:35:36.050

and which is part of the ceremonial system and somebody else has to come in and take the curse life. And it's very, very difficult in that whole situation and what's going on. And about three or four months ago, somebody cursed the church Bumba and um the

00:35:36.560 - 00:35:51.439

ministers discussed it with each other, talked it all back and forth with each other and decided that the church had been this when it was put up. So therefore, because it couldn't have had any effect on it and quickly microphone down and turn around and said

00:35:51.449 - 00:36:04.320

to Michael, is that right, Michael? And checked it out. Now, he liked to talk it all out. They'd already decided, already decided, but he still liked to check it all out and make sure that it was really right. And we, I find that really good that

00:36:04.330 - 00:36:19.530

he's prepared to talk and be involved in it and just have a discussion about it just online. I find I've got that sort of relationship. Unfortunately, not yet with his wife, who is my sister. I'd like to be able to sort things out with her, but

00:36:19.540 - 00:36:33.629

she's working after the one and I'd like to see her, but I've got that sort of relationship with Naomi very close to Naomi. And you talk about things a great deal in particular about which um Children and teenagers assist the situation. They will discuss things out

00:36:33.639 - 00:36:46.699

a lot. And Naomi has been a Christian for many years. My brother is the minister down at a and she's really informed about a lot of things, but she still needs an awful lot of information and she'll talk things out with me to help me if

00:36:46.709 - 00:37:08.919

I've got the people who pray when they all pray for me. And that is on is pretty good. You please. My too said she comes, there are quite a few of them who are so Christian and not with as anything else. I mean, the revival moved

00:37:08.929 - 00:37:23.909

everybody on in bits and pieces and really you can't say did the revival do it or not. But I mean, if you know, just doing have issues getting dressed part of it, but it was a step at the time, which has left, left us with certain

00:37:23.919 - 00:37:40.590

um uh activities that go on that, that we didn't have before that. Now, now proceed. Um since it's had a continuing effect in that a number of people came to the Lord who have still stuck with it, lots of people were involved at the revival time

00:37:40.600 - 00:37:53.639

who haven't stuck with it and they just sort of just drifted right back. But there's definitely a uh it was a step forward at the time. And uh in our part of the world, all things seem to go by about 33 steps forward and two steps

00:37:53.649 - 00:38:06.469

back. And uh that was one of the three steps forward. I think that's true. Anyway. And there are. There's another group of people as well, not just the ones who've got her along the way and another group of people. M Mo is one of them, a

00:38:06.530 - 00:38:22.709

woman who's a young woman who's got 66 Children. Um, and she's in a situation where she'd like a minute, but she's got difficulties being herself. She's obviously a Christian, but she's standing on the edge, but at least she keeps being called back and keeps coming back.

00:38:22.780 - 00:38:36.510

Every time we go to the Bible, like the Bible camp, she comes out whenever there are things that are on, she'll come to them and she wants to be involved in it and she's a very stubborn and high tempered person and she has difficulties in things

00:38:36.520 - 00:38:49.310

and gets in fights and then she gets ashamed of when she's done it. But she's obviously getting there very slowly and little bits at a time and I can see improvements in what, in what they're going on, but they're very slow. The things that are happening

00:38:49.320 - 00:39:02.199

and very rivals helped her as he a, a lot of things helped her just a little bit at a time to just keep moving on. And there are quite a few who are like that as well. Going back to the, what you were saying about cursing

00:39:02.209 - 00:39:27.739

the church. Do you agree with the I, I think they need to go further in that direction and realize that those curses can't, can't hurt Christians at all uh in any situation, whether it's a shop or a church or any building. Um But there's some spiritual

00:39:27.750 - 00:39:42.760

power there because people believe it's there and Satan can use that. But that, that has, has no, no power in Christians. But uh so far Christians still do observe the curses on shops and offices and things like that and they won't go in there while the,

00:39:43.090 - 00:39:55.149

while the cursor is on. But I think people are starting to think about that. I know that at least one young man who is very clearly has uh challenged people on to as to whether they should uh take any notice of those things they, they're put

00:39:55.159 - 00:40:11.060

on for purely political reasons. Somebody has an argument with somebody else. And so so it puts a curse on the shop so that you can do it and shopping for a while and it's um can be a pest at times. But I think that that was

00:40:11.070 - 00:40:30.179

a step to, to not recognize curses on churches was definitely a step forward. What if there was a curse on your hand? What would you do? Nothing. Absolutely nothing in that we have to say when we first came, um the situation with shops was always the

00:40:30.189 - 00:40:45.250

same. When C MS ran the shop where it was first, the doors stayed open and the missionaries kept looking in and we always did, we completely ignored it. So it would be the same in our home and we have had the opportunity in the last 12

00:40:45.260 - 00:41:00.489

months to make it plain. That the reason we've done that is not because people, spirits are not comfortable people with light skins because Satan cannot catch because he's gone and we've had to make it plain that that's the reason. It's not just that we don't believe

00:41:00.500 - 00:41:12.719

they're there or because they can't trust us because they're white. It's exactly the same for black and white people and provided we trust him there. No problem. And they're starting to get that message and that's, that's what's going on. But it's taken a long time to

00:41:12.729 - 00:41:24.600

get to the stage where we can talk about those things to people. You've got to get to the stage where we're open with them and they're open with us enough to discuss what they really think about the evil spirit before they leave out, why we do

00:41:24.610 - 00:41:39.370

it or even state. You know, they obviously can't touch you, but they do get out. And so we've had to go patiently to get to that stage, other things that have happened in exactly the same area. I mean, people die, um, a long time ago, anybody

00:41:39.379 - 00:41:53.719

who was buried, the men used to have to take and make ceremonies and special chance to protect themselves from evil spirits. And then those few men alone would take the body in and bury them in the burial ground and nobody else ever went near the burial

00:41:53.729 - 00:42:11.110

ground. And very soon after we arrived, people were getting to a stage where whenever somebody was buried, all the husbands went to the river, they walked in with their Children, particularly with their Children. In other words that we were displayed that we had no fear, whatever

00:42:11.120 - 00:42:27.489

in the situation. And now the aboriginal people do come in too and the aboriginal Christians come to in that situation and they have, they have shown plainly to those who aren't Christians that they are not in any way afraid and certainly cannot touch them. Delivering that

00:42:27.530 - 00:42:39.899

Children may bring more Children. Yes. But that's taken a while to develop and to get to that stage. And that's come through very slowly in the 10 years that we've been around the one about the shop. And I, so that's been much more recently, I'm talking

00:42:39.909 - 00:42:52.530

about those things, but very, very slowly that we're going through it. And you see those kind of things are real, very real to people. And that brings us back to what happened in the beginning. They've got to be aware of the fact that God overrules the

00:42:52.540 - 00:43:15.790

evil spirits and medicine. It's very, very important. And because that's where their major fear is, savings had been terrifying. And they do say it a step to the time. All right, they see them every day and kids see them too. So it's not literally literally. It's

00:43:15.840 - 00:43:33.139

what about your ch can you say that regard to, they're aware that they're there and our Children have had opportunities with their Children. Um, walking around, especially at night time or at evening time. David with their kids on that walk along the hill and they said,

00:43:33.149 - 00:43:41.689

you walk over there, they can't touch you. And David said, there's no difference between me and you. And he said, they said, but you can't see them. He said it doesn't matter to me. They're not there. That doesn't make any difference. The only reason they can't

00:43:41.699 - 00:43:59.409

touch me is because Christ is so for and so they, they're getting the picture from the witness of Children as well for Children of adults to adults if that's the truth. But um our Children are aware from teaching and conversations that they're there. They cannot have

00:43:59.989 - 00:44:32.540

medicine, not just for, we don't have any and they're aware of what's going on. You know, they on business. You tell you, tell you aboriginal people have not been aware that European people whose Children do visit. And Naomi has said to me and the others have

00:44:32.550 - 00:44:44.310

said to me, but you don't have to teach your Children to do things. They just, they're just good. You don't have to show them how to do it and it has, you know, although I do not like my Children to misbehave. Sarah threw a tantrum once

00:44:44.320 - 00:45:01.219

in the school for me. She only ever did it once, just once. But as she did it I was standing next to my mother in the classroom and she looked at me and she said, yes. Yeah. Yes. It was obviously sinking in that sometimes the Children

00:45:01.229 - 00:45:11.909

do this behind and they have to be time to do things. And my mom had a strong cancer. You see, and I told her that that was the situation and that I had to cope with it. What did you do in that situation? I talked with

00:45:11.919 - 00:45:24.770

Sarah. She was, she very quickly removed herself from the whole situation. Yeah. And, but I had already spoken to my William and told her that I was, I was both stubborn and had could lose my temperature and I help them to cope with it. She wasn't

00:45:24.790 - 00:45:37.909

there for him and also that I had to teach Sheah to do things and her daughter, Kirsty had all. But once she saw Sarah doing it, I mean, once was what she made it and from then on, we made very high school. She is, she's been

00:45:37.919 - 00:45:52.199

very nice. I'm Kirsten when we were away at bible point, um, locating her on a big truck and that she was up really high and we were standing up there among her. He said jump, Kirsty, jump to migrant. And I thought you're kidding? Because there were

00:45:52.419 - 00:46:16.110

many of the European people at all. They, she jumped straight of arms and stayed there. And I was really surprised just little things like that had gradually happened that had just taken things. Me the Children are very, very smart and that's because of language, Chinese situations.

00:46:16.129 - 00:46:36.939

I knew just people too in relationship with those of the city. It's too long time. It all started in the revival like everything else, the revival started before something else. Everything goes in together, they all wind in together with everything. And so it's, it's come. So

00:46:36.949 - 00:46:55.860

Mu Mu came there the revival time back when she, that's when she came back and she's done. This is uh the woman, the woman of these girls. She's, she has been serious assistant teacher. She's also my daughter in the relationship system. She's the one who's been,

00:46:56.179 - 00:47:18.399

become the sister here that she needs to help to keep going here. Um Pedro is very, very stubborn, strives cancer all the time, but it's just the standard area. So things, you know, everything, everything in the revival has had to be built on slowly and that

00:47:18.409 - 00:47:36.620

would be everywhere. It's not, it's been, it was too sharp and instant of them for it by itself to be sufficient. It was down here when you go through things like crusades, people go to counselors are given, are connected with uh usually scripture and our other

00:47:36.629 - 00:47:51.850

Bible reading notes and uh told to go to their church. So the minister knows where they are etcetera at the revival. They just decided to be con for stop all of the other things they have to pick up slowly. The idea of b and the idea

00:47:51.860 - 00:48:10.850

of rating fellowship, the idea of having other people, those things have to come in slow over a long period of time. And how do they uh operate as Christians? See, how do they hear the word of God? How do they pray the church? I'm saying we

00:48:10.919 - 00:48:31.139

preach. And so the next at those fellowship mean, but not they have um three of them, The three now that we should uh challenge them is just to have go studies, the women and the men are supposed to, but it's for them and then they come

00:48:31.429 - 00:48:47.500

and they using, what we do is print out the so that they can, they're not very good at reading. So we underline, you know, verse three in red and verse nine in blue. And then when we go through the Bible study, it says the question, uh

00:48:47.510 - 00:48:59.760

ask the question and so look at verse three, underlined in red, we'll find it. So they go through and they help read it that way and they're getting through, learning things in the Bible that way and going through. And the sort of thing that they learn

00:48:59.770 - 00:49:14.379

the level that they're at is in Ephesians, which is what gone through one, three, all the way through the streets of t where I got his husband, the things they're involved in and the way he's working. It is the thing which the one thing which came

00:49:14.389 - 00:49:33.270

up from, it was the fact that Paul was considered a break with God, that he had been told to go to people who work among them and what a gift it was when he was their servant. And that's all who stands out. And from that, the

00:49:33.280 - 00:49:51.050

conclusion we came to that we talked about was how important we all have to realize that if we learn to live, to be with other people, that is a very good. It's not, it's all the, and that's all we took from the whole of the Mars,

00:49:51.439 - 00:50:13.020

from the whole country just at one point. So that's about what we will be there. Just taking 11 year old. I said, I love, but at least they are talking about it. I don't do this. And do you see in the future um Reading Gods were

00:50:13.030 - 00:50:28.770

themselves. I read it when we go, we all read it out together anyway. They read it individually themselves and they have asked particularly now that Michael reads the brother and the boo and we have copies of it. So every time that we run off copies and

00:50:28.780 - 00:50:40.330

they follow it as they read it, they all take their copies home. Um presumably they practice reading all the things that they're doing. So they've got paid quite a few bits and pieces to do that. Um And we're giving them the word of God like that

00:50:40.340 - 00:50:54.219

as often as it's read so that they can then take it and practice reading in and again, would be only one versus if you need just a few bits for them to read, participate. That helps for, man, I can see where to look at the map

00:50:55.110 - 00:51:27.820

and at least get practice with the ma do you hear yourself? See the Hawaii, the Aboriginal Christians operate is being distinctive and different from the way what a Christian is. OK. You say exactly what I said to you, why anybody offers is different Children. Anybody always

00:51:29.219 - 00:51:44.919

have you done? That's slightly different from that. Yeah, that's right. I, the answer to the question is there are some things which because of their culture, they do and I don't know what they will do. I haven't done and, or they haven't done that. I have

00:51:45.770 - 00:52:02.330

some of those things are purely cultural. Um, and they've got nothing to do with spiritual things at all. And I didn't care that they do those, some of them in fact, are both that Satan's deceive them and they do that. I don't have to turn those

00:52:02.520 - 00:52:18.530

one and that's not European versus Aboriginal, that's Christian versus non history. And it, like all of us, we've all got to keep going through the word of God and finding more things and going through it. And I, you know, I, I buy intention won't say European

00:52:18.540 - 00:52:32.360

versus Aboriginal. I won't do it that way. We've all got to pick up these ones as it happens. The people who live at number one compared to the people who live at. W well, that I know there are different things which most of them are learning

00:52:32.370 - 00:52:47.639

compared to the different things which most of us here are. But that applies to the same sort of premiers. Um, anything else. So, not very many people that only know how to play it. I will, not many people like them. They have a drive car, you

00:52:47.649 - 00:53:03.459

know, so there's that sort of difference but the things that they're picking up in Bristol, hi, they have no difficulty whatsoever compared to us in understanding the significance of Christ and of the Holy Spirit, the reality of God in every situation and of being around them

00:53:03.469 - 00:53:17.530

everywhere because they've been aware of spirits around them all the time. And I have much less trouble than reading around all those things. And once I become Christians, they are aware of that to be aware that you're with them all the time and you say drop

00:53:17.610 - 00:53:39.800

from, oh, those seats are much easier for them to be fair. But there are other things which they have more difficulties with studies and then to go and to teach the Children same Children because it's just not one. There are however some of the aboriginal people

00:53:39.810 - 00:53:52.439

who are trying to learn about teaching their Children who are asking questions about it all the time in the same way as there are some billion people around here, who know a lot about it, the fact that health around the world. And so really, it is

00:53:52.449 - 00:54:26.649

much more individual people and just one little people versus it, he's going, they mean, are there any significant things that we haven't dealt with yet that have happened in other places? Forest um One thing we, we have just touched on and that is the um uh

00:54:26.750 - 00:54:45.419

that there's now a lot more aboriginal ministers than there were. And this really dates from the revival time that a a couple of men at various places. But there's been been, there's now an aboriginal minister at each of the C MS connected places. And it's been

00:54:45.429 - 00:55:04.409

very similar at the other places as well where the uniting church is working with me for there seem to have been men coming forward for ordination and this is uh which has been very encouraging and this can I think help consolidate things. This is just uh

00:55:04.429 - 00:55:22.620

I found just talking to people that uh not many people seem to be aware that we actually have an Aboriginal minister up there. I'd hope anyone of these C MS members would, would know that there. So is that few checkpoint and other things often. And the

00:55:22.629 - 00:55:38.489

Aboriginal people all have had an interview with their teenagers and that's everybody in the ministers, including them who is working very hard with their teenagers, trying to get things sorted out. Um Children, particularly two of his daughters he said that's probably love. It's probably one of

00:55:38.500 - 00:55:56.100

the most visible problems in all our communities is just the teenagers who have completely alienated from their parents. And right at a loose end it was seconds been coming. But at least the ministers, I mean, he went and chased his daughter for three hours in a

00:55:56.110 - 00:56:09.459

night, which is incredible compared to what anybody else has ever done. I think, I think the Christian families are going to have to have to give a lead in this real, really just starting to think about this. So it's uh far too early to say what

00:56:09.469 - 00:56:20.459

the results will be. Yeah. Oh, unless there's anything else that you think? Thank you very much. Indeed.